The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett: E258: The Money Expert: From $0 to Millions In 2 Years Without Any Hard Work!: Codie Sanchez

Why do you think most people don't ever reach financial freedom in their lives?

And this is where people get it so wrong.

One of the secrets to success is...

Cody Sanchez!

He's an entrepreneur who's invested in over 100 companies.

Turning over millions a year.

After spending 15 years on Wall Street,

he's now sharing her secrets to the world.

On how to make money.

I think that is the question everyone's asking themselves.

I think every human should understand the language of money.

It's not that complex.

We just make it sound complex

because the less people speak our language,

the more we can charge them.

For the first time in 25 years,

the richest 1% will control more than half of the world's wealth by next year.

The gap is huge.

This is why only one in 10 people dies wealthy.

If you understand the language, you can become an expert

and an expertise leads to a bunch of cash.

But what have you come to learn about what holds us back in that moment?

The people who love you, they want what's best for them.

Which is that you're safe, you're secure, everything's okay.

My loved ones were super supportive,

but they were always saying things like,

is the grass always greener, Cody?

And so we've become a generation of vitamin D deficient,

alternative milk drinking softies.

So I had a job I shouldn't have been at,

the guy I shouldn't have been with, in a place I shouldn't live.

But I was too scared.

I'm not one of those entrepreneurs

who just burn the bridges or sleep on the couch.

And so I needed something where I could stair step my way out of a corporate job.

And then I realized this could be way bigger than when anybody else could pay me.

Please zoom in on that moment.

What would you recommend my first step be, Cody?

First you have to...

I wanted to start this episode in a slightly different way.

When I looked at the community stats last week with myself and some of my team members,

we were blown away that millions of you choose to follow us right here on this app.

And that for me is insane.

This is the most insane privilege I've ever had in my life,

a privilege I never dreamed of having to be able to sit here with these great people

and have these conversations in the way that I love having them.

In 2020, theory are plans are more scary, they're bigger than ever before.

More of the same, but just finding ways that we can make the conversations even better,

even deeper, even more wisdom packed and actionable for everybody that listens to the show.

And the way that you can continue to support us is simple.

Just hit that follow button that's on this app right now.

That is the number one way that you can help this show.

Thank you so much for your continued support.

Means a lot to me and we'll continue to repay that support in every way that we can.

Let's get on with it.

Cody.

Who are you speaking to and what is the message that you're trying to send them?

I think the every man and woman, maybe people like you and I,

when we were younger, before we had any zeros or businesses.

And the message is very simple.

It's that I think by and large, and maybe they could feel this inside them too,

we've slowly gone from a nation of owners or a country of owners or a world of owners

to a nation of renters or serfs in another word.

And the idea is what if we could take that back?

And that's the whole premise of everything we do is getting people into the owner's chair

into ownership as opposed to letting other people be the architects of their lives.

And it took me way too long to do that.

And so I'm hoping that it will take other people less time if we share.

Give me the persona then of someone that you believe will find value in this conversation.

Like, where are they?

Are they in their life?

What are they thinking day to day?

What are their aspirations?

Yeah, I think there's sort of three humans that I picture.

There's one that I call work in John.

And he is basically or she, but I just have a male avatar for this one,

is sitting at a job right now that they don't really like doing things they don't want to do

for people they don't like and building their dream and their castle.

And they're mad about it, although your choice to be there,

but they're mad about that decision.

And they want to, they want to weigh out,

but they have either golden handcuffs where they make too much money

or they have responsibility bills that have to be paid.

And so they don't really feel like they have a solution except going to find like the next best

but kind of still worst company.

And then the second avatar is there's an aging population that by and large in the workforce,

we say, huh, you're over 50 or 60.

Like you're not getting as many job looks as you were before, but now we live until we're 90.

So what are they supposed to do for 30, 40 years?

And I think their evolution can be also buying a business, taking over something,

becoming an owner and maybe something not aggressive as aggressive as they were before.

And then I think the third avatar are humans who kind of got sold pipe dreams over the last couple of years.

Like if I buy 472 houses that pay me a hundred bucks a month profit,

I'll finally become financially free.

Well, it takes a lot of cash to do that.

Or, you know, if I have NFTs on the side or if I go into the stock market on the side,

all of which aren't rigged games exactly but are meant to just beat inflation.

And so that third group of people might like what they're doing.

They just need, they need something else on the side.

It's a little bit of a safety net because I don't think our safety nets will be around by the time we need them.

And you've been through your own journey from the corporate world to working in finance,

working as a journalist, where you are now, which one of those avatars did you represent?

Well, I was definitely a working John.

So that would have been the first one.

When I was in finance, I was doing well, but I definitely felt trapped.

I mean, I was all those things.

I was, should have been happy and content with where I was, but felt like the 60 hour work weeks were too much.

And I didn't really like the culture of the company that I was working for.

I had a lot of respect for the CEO, but I didn't really fit.

And, but I was too scared.

I'm like a little bit of a scaredy cat.

I'm not one of those entrepreneurs like our mutual friend, Alex, who just was like,

burn the bridges or sleep on the couch.

You know, I'll sell it all.

That's just not me.

It's too scary.

And so I needed something where I could have like a soft landing.

I could stair step my way out of a corporate job.

So I started buying these small businesses with the idea that maybe one day they could just meet my costs.

And then I realized, oh God, I'm thinking so small.

This could be way bigger than what anybody else could pay me.

But I was a working John for sure.

We zoom in on that moment because I think most people listening to this now can relate to that moment of maybe hearing you speak

and hearing your content online or hearing an Alex Hamosy or whatever, hearing Gary Vaynerchuk, whoever it might be.

Talk about starting that business, pursuing that side hustle.

But there's this psychological barrier to overcome, which most of us can't overcome.

We call it fear.

We say, you know, I'm waiting for the perfect time.

I don't have the confidence.

If you zoom in on that, now you've started this new journey in your life where you're creating content and you're advising people on how they can pursue the paths that you've pursued yourself.

What have you come to learn about what holds us back in that moment?

And maybe the falseness of the stories we tell ourselves.

You described it as being a scaredy cat.

Yeah.

I, at least for myself, what I'll say is, you know, daughter of immigrants who thought that what I had achieved was the pinnacle, you know, people that I love more than anybody in the world.

And maybe that's similar for a lot of people listening.

The people who love you, they want what's best for them typically, which is that you're safe.

You're secure.

Everything's okay.

They don't really want what's quote unquote best for you because that's actually the scary thing.

Real growth happens when you take huge risks and you potentially fail and you realize that you're not going to die.

And so I realized that my loved ones were some of the reasons that were actually holding me back.

Super supportive.

But they were always saying things like, is the grass always greener, Cody?

You know, what about this next thing?

Is that really going to make you happy?

You know, are you sure it's not you?

Is it them?

And in some cases, they're right.

I just have that, that ridiculous urge to keep growing and doing more.

But that, that made me jump from one, two, three, four, five, five finance companies in like 10 years or something like that.

Because I thought it was each, it was the individual company and I didn't realize, oh no, I'm just like unemployable.

I want to work for myself.

I'm not going to be great at being at somebody else's employee.

But it was the stories that I heard again and again from my family because they wanted to keep me safe, very kind, but not right for me.

So in your life, there comes a moment where you make this kind of peculiar decision.

And I say peculiar because most people don't make the decision to start off ramping from the corporate world, essentially.

You buy your first business, right?

So you're in a job.

And while you're in the job, you decide to buy a business.

Did you have loads of cash when you did that?

No, no, no, no.

In fact.

And why did you do it?

What was the thought process that made you go, do you know what, that's a good idea?

I think it's usually triggered from some sort of pain.

Like at that time, I was fighting a little bit with the CEO of the company that I was working in.

And they really wanted me to, they wanted me to run this business that I'd taken from zero to a couple billion in assets under management.

And they wanted me to continue running it, but I started getting press and stuff started happening because we had had this growth.

And they wanted me to do it really quietly and not as much the CEO, but some of the other managing directors.

I was by far the youngest.

I was the only female and, you know, that company was wild.

But they basically in many ways were like, um, you need to do it our way.

And I was like, well, your way didn't get you to this couple billion dollars under management.

Works great for you guys over here, but it didn't over there.

So no, I'm going to run the business this way.

And, uh, and so we were kind of arguing a little bit.

And I think I saw the writing on the wall that it wasn't my casino.

They weren't my chips.

I was working for somebody else.

And at the end of the day, they were writing the rules as is fair.

It was their business.

And I knew that at some point I was either going to get pushed out or leave.

And so at that point I started buying these businesses on the side because I wasn't sure I wanted to work for somebody ever again.

I'm fascinated by the first step people take because the first step seems to be the hardest.

That first step to buying that first business and you're stepping out into uncertainty and the unknown there.

And that's really like that.

You know, if I could give one thing to the audiences that have listened to me for the last 10 years on social media and on this podcast,

it would just be the answer to taking that first step like out into like you did at 29 30 to buy that first business.

Talk to me, talk to me about specifically that first one.

What were you looking for?

What was your thesis?

And, um, I guess, how did you learn?

How did you learn about buying as you call them boring businesses?

Yeah, well, I had a benefit, which is as a journalist, I sort of infiltrated finance.

I'm not technically as intelligent.

You know, I'm not as I'm not a financial modeling guru.

I'm not a lot of things that people are in finance, but I'm pretty decent at asking questions and then figuring out who are the right people that could get me the answers.

And so what I realized pretty quickly is we were doing a bunch of deals.

You know, I was doing deals that were tens of millions, hundreds of millions and billion dollar deals.

And I don't know why it took me so long, but I realized there's no difference.

Like materially between a billion dollar, a hundred million dollar, a 10 million dollar deal and a one million dollar deal.

And if that's the case, then I bet if I have a couple hundred thousand or $10,000, I could do a much smaller deal.

Wouldn't I be able to do the exact same thing?

So I saw behind the curtain, you know, like at the Wizard of Oz and realized that the wizard was actually pretty short.

And because I saw that and then I just said, well, now we just work backwards.

And just like you would buy, you know, a hundred million dollar condo unit or, you know, condo building, you could see how you could go all the way back and buy your first studio.

Right. It's the same thing with businesses. It's just stair stepping real estate.

And so I at the time, my biggest constraint was not knowledge. I knew how to do deals. It was time.

You know, I was working 60, 70 hours a week.

And so one of the first deals I did was a laundromat deal because I figured, well, you don't need somebody to run it full time.

And it was a hundred K transaction. And so that wouldn't bankrupt me.

And, you know, I could buy a little business like this and that business could keep running even while I wasn't there.

And I could have an operator that could probably help me with anything that went sideways.

Where did you find a laundry mat to buy for a hundred K?

Was that a website? Did you know the guy?

No, the guy. So basically what happened for my first deals, I didn't have a framework.

So it was just, hey, I do these really big deals. Could I do a smaller deal?

And if I could do a smaller deal, what would be the easiest small deal to do that would be the least risk?

And so at the time I knew a guy that was running a couple of laundromats.

So I basically said to him, hey, if I find one for you, will you help me operate it?

And he knew how to do that. So the very first one we had was in California.

And that's one of the secrets to this is two things.

First, you have to learn how to do deals, which is not really that complex.

We just make it sound complex in finance because financial lingo is like the moat around how we make money, right?

The less people speak our language, the more we can charge them, which is the secret.

And then the second aspect was how to run a laundromat, right?

Like, I don't know, machine breaks, what am I going to do?

And so then I had this guy who knew how to run these.

And I could just find the deal for him, close the deal for him and be the cash for him.

Why did they sell to you?

Old, you know, these are 68-year-old owners of a business that have been running this laundromat

plus a bunch of other small businesses in the vicinity for 20, 30 years.

And so can you imagine running your podcast for 30 years?

Probably be fun, but by the end you might be open to selling.

Now imagine you had a laundromat for 30 years, you know, you're dealing with broken machines

or there's somebody who's homeless messing around with some stuff.

At a certain point, you don't even want to continue with a profitable business.

And this is where people get it so wrong all the time on the internet.

People love to tell me, no way would anybody sell a business.

That business made $67,000 in profit.

So I bought it for 100K a year, did $67,000.

And people on the internet do one of two things to that.

They go, no fucking way it didn't happen.

And why would somebody sell?

And like, did you give them a bad deal?

And the second group of people go, that's a terrible deal.

I'd never do that deal because you don't have enough profit in that for that to be a business, not a job.

So those are the two things.

And the first one I'd say in the U.S. right now,

there are tens of millions of small businesses for sale that will never sell.

And I tell a story about my uncle Ebb who had a small business that was exactly that,

that he closed down, which by the way costs you money as opposed to selling

because he had no idea his business was sellable.

Like many businesses that I had before I did this, I shut down instead of selling them.

I didn't even realize that even though I was in finance.

And then to the second group, I'd say, you start with a small business

that probably isn't the greatest business for you to own long term,

but businesses are like real estate.

You can turn around and sell them after you get in the game.

But I think of these businesses, I call them gateway drug businesses.

They're the, once you learn how to do a deal, you'll never see the world the same again.

It will change your entire perspective on everything.

You will walk in everywhere and you will realize that business is full of masochists

like you and me who do this despite it being awful many times,

but we love it in some way.

But at some point we're going to want to sell our thing and move on to the next.

And so everywhere around you right now, wherever you are,

somebody sitting next to you wants to sell their business.

And what if you could figure out how to buy that business,

put it in an operator in it and then do it again and again and again.

And that's the only difference between you and Warren Buffett

or Blackstone or these big, huge companies.

Is it important to have competence in the area and the industry

that you're trying to buy these small businesses in, in your point of view?

Not really, no. Not at all.

But it helps, right?

Oh, of course it helps.

More important than anything is it's sort of like real estate.

It's really about the deal.

Can you understand, can you read a balance sheet?

Can you understand profit and loss, which is not that difficult to understand?

And then can you figure out how to get to the person that can get you answers?

So for instance, I didn't know anything about laundromats,

but I knew a guy who knew laundromats.

Often what I tell people these days is I'm a, I'm more old school,

like I would go knock on doors and I would shake business owners' hands.

But you could also go to Reddit where there are platforms

with 100,000 electricians on them.

And so if you wanted to buy an HVAC company,

which was, which is like heating, air conditioning, and often electric electricity,

I would go on there and I would try to find electricians in my local area

and I would ask them questions and I would pay them for an hour consult

to figure out how to run this business.

I think we forget in this day and age how easy it is to get the information that we want.

And so we listen to the fear of the fact that we don't know what we're doing.

And I actually think that's irrational.

I think it's really easy for somebody to tell you why things won't work.

It's actually quite hard to convince somebody that they're capable of doing something.

What if I don't have 100K? You had 100K, right?

Yeah.

Say I'm working a job, I've saved up only $5,000.

Yeah.

Well, I've bought a business for $3,000.

I've bought a business for $8,000 and I've bought many, many, many businesses for $0.

And I'm not saying this in a way that's clickbaity.

Will you go out right now, talk to somebody tomorrow and be able to buy a business for $0?

Like you're going to need to do a little work.

Just on the structuring of the deal, right?

Just on the structuring of the deal.

So they get paid on performance.

Exactly.

Or they get paid on what's called seller financing.

So these, you know, you can go and most businesses, most small businesses,

below $10 million in revenue, 60% of them sell with some component of seller financing,

which just means if, let's say, you know, somebody manages your property here.

Let's say that that property manager makes 100K a year profit.

They want to sell their business.

You're a terrible tenant.

They can't handle it anymore.

And they sell that business.

They want to sell that business typically for two to five X profit.

That's what these small businesses go for.

And the, the typically there aren't enough buyers, like there's not a bunch of people running

around trying to buy property management companies.

So what do they do instead?

Well, you would come to them and say, all right, I'll buy out your property management

company, but you're going to be my loan.

I'm going to pay you a percent interest rate.

Plus, I'm going to defer your tax burden.

So you pay less in taxes.

Nobody likes that.

And, and I'm going to buy the business by giving you $300,000 with, you know, over five years,

right?

So I'm going to keep a percentage of the profits and I'm going to give the rest to you.

And it's not really that complex.

It's really what happened in real estate before we had Zillow and Redfin and all of these

sites that made it super normalized to sell real estate.

As you said a second ago, the real key here is knowing the art of the possible as it relates

to deals, the way you construct your deals so that you win.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Basically.

Well, and the, I think the truth of deal making that people forget about is that it is one

of the very few things where it's never a zero sun game.

So if I go to sell a stock, I hope that when I sold the stock, I sold at the right time

and you bought at the wrong time.

Right?

Like that's what we hope in buying and selling small businesses.

That doesn't have to be the case.

You know, I could buy, I could sell my property management company to you.

You could pay me three X profits and I could say, but if the company increases revenue

by X amount, which I think it will with these tweaks and I kind of help you a little bit,

how about you pay me 400,000 instead of 300,000?

And you would go, great.

If you hit those metrics, no problem.

That'd be an awesome deal for me.

So there's plenty of ways to make sure it's a win-win, but to your point, this is why

people are poor because nobody teaches us the language of deals.

And if somebody taught us not how to negotiate our salary, that's fine, but how to negotiate

for equity and ownership, the world would look a whole lot different, but that's not

in the big pictures incentive.

It's really good for the little guy, not so good for the big guy.

The other thing when you're approaching a business and trying to get them to knowing

how to structure a deal is one thing, but then there's an element of persuasion and sales

woman ship involved in this.

How important is learning to sell and how can we be better salespeople in your view?

What is the key to being a great salesperson?

Because you must be, to be buying businesses, you must be able to figure out what someone

wants and present it to them.

I truly believe that sales is a fallacy.

I don't think sales exists.

I think you find people who are already predisposed to want what you are quote unquote selling.

And I learned that very early on from one of my mentors actually at Goldman, that you

don't sell anybody on anything.

You're never going to change somebody's mind.

And if you think I'm wrong, go try to convince a Republican to become a Democrat, right?

Or a Tory to become, I don't know what's the other side.

It doesn't really go very well usually.

So my belief is actually what you're looking for is just who are the people who are, you're

finding trigger moments.

If I was to have a conversation with Steven about selling your business, I would try,

I would be asking questions like, you know, how's it going running?

Wow, 20 years?

That's a long time.

If their answer is fucking love this business.

I am never selling.

This is amazing.

You're like, cool, awesome.

No problem.

So lovely meeting you.

But if you meet the person that's like, yeah, I'm ready.

I'm ready to retire.

I've got this vision of a ranch in my head out in the countryside.

And, you know, but my kid doesn't want to take over the business.

You're not, you're not going to get them to think something different.

You're purely discovering what they truly feel.

And then you are going to be the person that enables them to have a retirement in a way

that no government can.

Like you are the retirement plan.

And so that's maybe what you need to learn is just curiosity for another human.

And then you need to understand what a motivated seller looks like.

And a motivated seller looks like somebody who's ready for their next adventure, whatever

that may be.

And if you can find those two things, then you find the people that actually, yes, they

want what you're selling.

Now, what you actually do have to convince somebody of, and I hope you're true about

it, is that you are going to be a good shepherd.

If you are going to be their retirement plan, you better not go broke, right?

You better actually be able to take this business and run with it.

And so that is one part where you have to convince like, why should I sell this business

to you, Stephen?

How are you going to take care of my business?

And that part really again comes down to curiosity, making sure that you're setting yourself up

and the seller for success, not rocket science.

I'm going to play the role of a 25-year-old.

I'm working in a job.

I've got a little bit of disposal income, but not a ton.

I'm listening to you, Cody, and I'm going, I want some of that.

You've got a holding company, right?

You've got a fund as well.

How much, roughly, the revenue of the holding company?

70 million.

So your holding company does about 70 million revenue.

You've got a fund as well.

Yep.

How big is the fund?

Small, 10.

Okay.

So 80 million combined.

I want to get to where you are, but I'm currently working in a job.

I'm 25 years old.

I've got, I don't know, $7,000 in the bank, 7,000 pounds in the bank, whatever.

What would you recommend my first step be, Cody?

How do I get out of this job?

Yeah.

My first step, if you're going to do it like a pro, I'd say this, which is tell me what

you do for a living.

I do content.

Perfect.

So if you do content for a living, what I'd say is don't buy a laundromat.

I talk about laundromats.

I actually need to change that.

I need to tell somebody I bought a different first business because it's a terrible business

to buy.

It just was my first one, and it's very easy to understand.

So I'm like, if you can't understand quarter machine, clothes, clean, don't buy a business,

any business, just forget you heard me talk about anything.

And so that's why I talk about laundromats.

But if I was going to do it the pro way, I would say you should use your unfair advantage.

And if you're in the content business, don't buy a boring business in the traditional sense.

Look around you.

It's something I call my personal PNL review.

So I'd basically look at, what do I spend money on already?

If you're in content, you probably spend money on ad purchasing, right?

You probably spend money on video production.

You probably spend money on maybe you rent a set space.

You have all these expenses around you.

And what if you could turn one or two of those expenses into an asset, not a lot of ability,

thing that makes you money, not a thing that costs you money.

And so I did a deal back when I was doing more video production in my last company where

I bought a podcast and video production company.

And I did that deal basically for $0.

I think I put $10,000 down for that deal that ended up doing about $300,000, $400,000 a year

because I just said, I know like five or six other people that could use your service.

I'm going to like double your revenue by introducing you to these people.

And I pay you, let's say $3,000 a month now.

What if we're just going to wipe that out?

If I can hire these other people and you're going to give me 25% of the company or whatever

percentage it was, that's what I would do if I was you.

So if you're young and hungry, look around you and see what you pay for and what you

currently utilize already and then try to get a percentage of that business if not buying

the whole thing.

And that's sort of the pro way to do it as opposed to car wash, need to go learn totally

different market.

You can do the second.

It's just a little bit riskier.

So I'm working in content, 25 years old, $7,000 in the bank.

I realize what you've just said and I go, I'm at a marketing agency.

We book a lot of studios.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to approach a studio space, try and do a deal with them.

And then I'm going to send clients their way.

Yeah.

You could totally do that.

That'd be a SWAT equity deal or a REV equity deal, revenue equity deal.

So for a studio space, I mean, I think the probably pro way to do that would be one,

you'd approach them and you'd kind of get an understanding for their business.

You'd be like, how much revenue do you make?

How big is this?

You'd figure out if you were material to their business.

So me doing 3K a year with my video production guy, I was material to his business.

He was only doing, I don't know, $100,000 a year or something like that.

And so if my 3K went away, that's like 20% of his business right there over a yearly

basis.

So if you go to a studio production company and they're like, yeah, we're doing $7 million

a year and you're paying them 3K, you're like, all right, cool.

Anyway, nice to chat with you.

You could say, you know, who's the owner?

How long you've been doing this?

And you could dive into it.

And the other side of the coin is you might find out that the owner knows 70 and you become

buds with the owner.

And the owner loves when you come in because you're kind of like young and you learn about

what he does.

And then you ask who's going to take over the business.

And then you might say, hey, you know, I do this other thing, but I would love to sort

of be an apprentice to you in a way and potentially buy your business using future profits and

you can sort of like stay on and we can stair step our way into this.

But would you be open to that?

Like leaving your legacy to somebody like me.

And so you could do it that way too.

But I think it is learned.

It goes back to kind of the smart question you asked, which is like the two avatars are

who's listening to this right now.

And then that's the same question to the people listening that you're going to ask the owner.

What sort of avatar is the owner?

And how can you become the solution to what that avatar is looking for?

How can you become the son to the father?

You know, how can you become the buyer to a really anxious seller?

And then you can get your deal done.

Why do you think most people don't ever reach financial freedom in their lives?

Do you think it's a psych, psychology thing, a mindset thing?

Obviously, let's take, you know, the very practical elements out of the equation.

So, you know, severe hardship, poverty, all of those kinds of things, but people that

are in that sort of middle layer that are comfortable.

Why do they never, some of those people never really reach a point of financial freedom?

I think humans defer to the paths they've seen before them.

I think so often we follow in our fathers or our mothers footsteps.

And that's why I think the internet's really powerful is you have an opportunity to now

choose the family footsteps you want to follow into.

So one, I used to think it was just a knowledge gap, but then I went to this event and I was

talking to my friend about it and she said that the facilitators did something really

cool.

It was a group of women.

Imagine like 40 women in a room, right?

And they're there to talk about finances.

And in this room, they said, okay, everybody close your eyes and I want you to picture

money, picture money right now, and then I want you to turn your body into the shape

you feel when you hear the word money, right?

And so 30 women, all eyes closed, they take whatever shape and she goes, now open your

eyes and look around.

And my friend was explaining to me how most people in the room were like fetal position.

They were like holding, they were like really close somewhere on the ground, you know, somewhere

covering their eyes.

So in a room of 30 relatively successful women, their reaction was like attack, shame, guilt

for money.

And she was standing there with her arms open wide, like, you know, give me the money.

And when I think about my relationship with money, it's the same thing.

I'm like, if I think about money, I'm like, yeah, it's over here.

Like my hands are up, like I'm here for it.

But most people have this weird emotional attachment to money.

And so I used to think that people on the internet like, not, I like Tony Robbins, but

like Tony Robbins or whatever who do a lot of the motivational stuff, I kind of didn't

get it.

I'm like, just give me the tactics, skip the, skip the other thing.

And then I realized that most people have really bad stories that they tell themselves

about money.

And you could tell, I mean, to be interesting, your next speech, you could try it, but I

tried it at one of mine, same thing.

Men and women holding each other, like they're being beaten when somebody talks about money.

The average human feels that way.

And so I think it all comes down to what we believe, which is hard for somebody in finance

like me to say, you know, typically I would think, well, if you knew what to do, you could

just do it.

But that's not the case.

You have to believe that you can do it.

And the only way I can figure out to get more people to believe that they can do it is to

show more people who are super normal or in fact, below average doing the damn thing.

But if I had the answer to that, that'd be the million dollar question.

I read a stat in the U.S. that only one in 10 people dies wealthy in the U.S. that most

people die broke and young.

And I thought that was fascinating because we're at economic high times, like lower

poverty levels than ever before, but still most people die at least without extra cash

to pass on to the next generation.

Why do you think people don't reach financial freedom or most people die without a lot of

cash?

I think obviously it's a very complex topic, but I think I really resonate with the emotional

psychological side of things that you described.

It's the same reason why most people don't go to the gym or eat healthy.

Money is inherently emotional.

When I had no money, I was reckless with money.

All the gambling shops are in the areas where people don't have money.

There's something deeply psychological about money.

So when I was working in those call centers, if I got paid £1,000 at the end of the month,

I would the same day go and buy a TV or an Xbox like a PlayStation for about £600-700.

I would not pay my rent to go and buy that PlayStation.

And sometimes I'd buy the PlayStation without having a TV.

There was just something psychologically attached to the dopamine rush or the sense of self-worth

that I got from owning the shiny thing.

When I got money, my relationship with money became amazing.

I stopped buying designer things.

I stopped wasting it.

I didn't feel the need to show off or buy Rolexes or whatever.

So I was able to preserve wealth more.

There's a really interesting relationship with money on both ends of the spectrum.

When you have less of it, it's often because of certain psychological things and certain

people.

I was one of them.

It's harder to hold on to.

But it feels easier to hoard and more broadly on the subject of why people don't reach

financial freedom, I think the modern world tells us that we can get rich quick.

And when you think about how people build wealth, we think about the Warren Buffetts

of the world.

It's so boring and slow.

And who's going to buy that book?

You know?

Be a billionaire at 87.

I'm not going to be able to dance in the nightclub at 87.

So why do I want a billion then?

That's why the NFT thing and the crypto scam, this whatever, is also appealing to people

because it's quick.

Yeah.

It's true.

Well, you know what?

I actually was reading somewhere a story about in South Africa, in the slums, they have

the highest concentration of the largest televisions per square foot of the house.

If you've been there, and I've actually never been, so I can't validate, but you will see

very small little rooms with huge televisions.

And I thought that was interesting, but it actually makes sense because maybe it comes

down to a belief that people don't think they're ever going to get out.

And so they think the only chance of getting out is going into whatever the short term

pleasure is.

It's like, if you never think you're going to escape your everyday reality, which is

actually kind of miserable, then you're going to buy the PlayStation because why wouldn't

you?

Why would you save and try to get out when you've never seen anybody else get out?

But what does the PlayStation mean so much more to you in that moment than a PlayStation?

It means it's your, it's self-worth.

It's one tiny token that you are successful, that you can show your friends or that you

can just even fear and self-esteem.

It's so much more than a PlayStation.

The thing that invalidates you, in this case money, will be the thing that has the greatest

chance of making you feel valid.

And so if in my house, the lack of money was always the thing that caused my shame.

So the minute I got any of it, I would overcompensate by trying to buy some shit to show people.

And then when I had loads of it, I gave a fuck.

That void was almost filled.

Yeah, it's true.

I also think it's hard.

I remember many times where, I remember checking accounts always being overdrawn and seeing

the little negative pin on my email and cell phone that you couldn't, there was nothing

else in there.

When I was in college and trying to figure it out before I made any money, I think I

made like 37K in my first job out of college.

So I definitely remember all that, but I think if you can have this belief and you can get

around other humans who have had success or are striving for success, your aperture

just opens in a different way.

And then maybe the commercials and the ads and the things that make you feel like you

want to buy all the everyday stuff go away.

Like I don't really like, I kind of viscerally get mad when I see people who have wealth

showing images of them in their Bentley's or Rolls Royce's or I mean, I have a nice

watch, but like you don't see me show that shit anywhere.

Like when people are show themselves in their private planes or whatever, I just think they're

missing the whole boat.

And then what they're doing is they're perpetuating the PlayStation situation.

They're doing it again and again, and they're doing it because it doesn't make them happen

anymore to have it.

That's not enough.

I have to show a bunch of people.

I got it.

And what they should actually be showing is, man, I just invested in my first stock.

That's fucking cool.

Look at my, I mean, if you look at my stuff, it's like, I have laundromats and car washes

behind me all the time in them.

Because that's the stuff that you should try to strive for.

You can actually pass it down.

It can pay you back.

You can buy as many playstations as you want.

But I think to your point, the other thing is we are all, you know, have you ever felt

when you're around other people and they're sort of negative or they want to talk about

people the whole time and like how that energy feels?

And it's like, it's draining, right?

Even if you kind of get caught up in it and it's fun for a second, at the end you're like,

I feel kind of gross for having that combo.

I think it's the same with ads and stuff that we take into us.

And so they're basically creating our stories for us in social media by showing all this

fancy stuff.

And then we start to have this memetic desire, this external desire and belief that we actually,

that we want it, that we need it, but we don't.

We're just becoming a replica of the people that we're surrounding ourselves with, which

are now social media.

There's no, even growing up, there's no laundry mats and 50 cents videos.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Sports cars and mansions and stuff.

So that was my North Star as a young black man.

It was like, how do I get a mansion and a sport in a sports car?

And in the first page of my diary, 18 years old, it says, four things I want to achieve

before I'm 25.

Bear in mind, I was shoplifting pizzas at the time and I was a university dropout, not

speaking to my parents with two CCJs, which is like when the court is coming for you for

debts.

I wrote, a ranger of a sport will be my first car.

I didn't have a driving license until I was 23.

I'll make a million pounds.

I'll work on my body image again, because I'm a very small kid and I'll get a girlfriend.

Those are my four goals in life.

And they were totally influenced by the outside world.

That's why my book is called a happy sexy millionaire because I thought if I became

a sexy millionaire, then I would become everything I needed to be.

And I was so wrong.

I mean, I don't regret the decisions I made because you can't really in hindsight, but

I wish I had better influences to say the least.

Yeah.

I think that's why content is so important.

I think about Warren Buffett's annual shareholders meeting, which you can go and attend if you

own stock and you don't have to own much of it.

And I think people made fun of me when I started creating content online, because they were

like, oh, big, successful, private equity person.

Now you're taking your own money.

And if you really had companies that made $80 million in revenue, that means you're worth

a couple hundred million bucks.

And if that's the case, why would you be making Instagrams and TikToks?

And that doesn't make much sense, right?

And my reaction at the time was, I think we should make it just as entertaining talking

about stuff that makes us money as we do stuff that costs us money.

I think probably that'd be good.

And if we could do that, that'd be a worthy mission.

And also it'd be fun to try to do it.

I don't know if we could do it, but yeah, maybe the next rap videos, I mean, and now,

for honestly, my favorite deals to break down are the celebrity deals, because they're

fascinating, like the rock.

Have you ever looked at the rocks content from a product perspective?

Brilliant.

So the rock, if you look at his content, so let's just talk Instagram.

If you go to the rocks Instagram, I want you to count how many pieces of content he

has that have product placement in them of companies he owns.

And the answer is close to 80%.

So almost every single post the rock does is an ad.

But what do we really see?

We see sexy tequila.

We see abs.

We see him with his beautiful wife.

Like we see these other things, but we don't realize that every single one of them is an ad.

And so what if we could flip that around?

Like wouldn't it be cool if the rock talked about the deals he did too and how he did that?

Now he goes back and he talks about how he stole stickers bars, similar to you with pizza.

But I think even for celebrities, they don't want to talk about the deals that they did.

They just want to talk about all the money that they have.

It almost seems like faux pas somehow to talk about the deals and how good a deal making they are.

Like Reese Witherspoon, billionaire now.

Why?

Because Reese Witherspoon, little sweet Susie Sunshine in pink, basically took a book club

and said to authors, I'll give you part of my platform for you to talk about your book

because I'm lovely.

It's free.

You're going to sell a bunch of books.

It's tiny and significant detail.

I'd like the future rights to turn your book into a movie and I'll pay you some, some or I'll have a

right of first refusal, AKA I have, I get the right to buy it before anybody else and I'll pay you

then for it.

The author goes, amazing, Reese, of course, perfect.

They come on Reese, basically A, B tests.

So tests out which books do best.

And depending on which books do best, Reese, Reese buys their movie rights and makes movies that

create, you know, tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue.

But Reese doesn't tell that story.

Reese tells the Susie Sunshine story of her selling the books.

I think the other story is more interesting and more people can learn from it.

So when I hear these deals and when I see these big success stories, we've got Kylie, we've got the

Rihanna's of the world, we've got Ryan Reynolds, The Rock, Reese Witherspoon.

The question that we must always be asking ourselves, I certainly ask it, was that them?

Or did they just have a great advisor, a financial advisor that came along at some point and went

by the way, you do it like this and you'll make fucking shit loads.

Yeah.

Well, my question is, who cares?

I still want to know the secret sauce.

And so she's, none of them are that dumb where they don't know what the deal was, right?

Like, even if somebody was smarter than them, which could be, Reese may have a genius behind

her, The Rock too, probably Danny Garcia, his wife, his manager, Kylie, yeah, the goat,

you know, which is weird to say about the Kardashians, but, you know, behind them, the

mom, for sure.

But they're, you know, they're smart enough when you create that much wealth and you do it

continuously multiple times, like Reese is done with Draper James too.

You definitely know what's going on.

So I think like sharing those secrets would be cool, but that's usually where people go.

People go, well, they're famous.

So it's easy for them or, you know, who did the deal?

And I'm like, yeah, maybe it's Scooter Braun behind the scenes, but I'd like, I'd like to

know how they structured that.

The reason they don't tell you, though, is because it feels like it's the opposite of

the authenticity that they're trying to maintain.

So if they came out and went, listen, the way we did you on that whiskey deal, I got 50%, my

job was to post it with the abs every week.

And you guys fucking bought it and now it's worth a billion dollars is the how to, they

can't do that deal again, because everything they touch, I'm going to think, oh, it's a deal.

Well, I think you could do it in a way that was real, like you could be like, we did this

business and maybe you could give some of it away.

Like you could be like, you know, if, if the rock makes a billion dollars off of

Taramana, couldn't he then say, we would never have done a billion dollar deal unless

you guys bought it.

And because you bought it, we're going to give you some equity.

We're going to allow people to buy into equity at the company at a lower valuation and have

access to it.

I mean, that's kind of what venture capital and crowdfunding does, right?

So, I mean, they can do whatever they want to do, but I think there's so many ways to

get around it.

And maybe there's nothing but downside because people these days get mad when people

make money.

And so maybe people would hate that, but God, I think it'd make a lot more humans

rich for people to be honest about how they got there, you know,

I reflect as you were speaking on a conversation I had with a cab driver in the

UK, he said to me, you know, are you on that?

Diary of a CEO guy, I listened to your podcast in the cabs and, you know, I'm, I'm

working three jobs.

This is one of them.

And I'm trying to, what he was saying was I'm trying to find financial freedom.

I'm working this cab job.

I'm doing this other little thing on the side, but I'm trying to find the way, I'm

trying to find the way to get out of this life into, and he was scrambling around.

He was saying to me, you know, my friend does some stuff in Africa and Ethiopia,

and he's got some thing there with property.

So I might go there and there's this other thing I might do.

Those people, those are the ones that I'm trying to speak to you today.

Those ones that are like looking for the way out.

Well, first of all, cab drivers and Uber drivers are my people.

I always, yeah, I always chat with them.

Well, and they always listen to my stuff because they know small business.

Like they have a friend that owns a laundry mat or they have a friend that

works inside of a car wash or owns a car wash.

These are like blue collar businesses.

Right.

Um, but usually what I would say to them is something I actually said to one of

the guys that's with me today, I'd say, try to break your frame entirely.

Most people look for individual next tactics.

So they're like, what can I do over the next one, two or three years to get here?

One thing I think is really helpful to do is say, okay, you have a three year goal.

Break the frame.

How could you achieve that goal in six months?

What would be something so different, so out of the box, so big that the goal

that was going to take you three to six years is now going to take you six months.

And I want you to spend some time on that, spend a week, spend a weekend deeply

thinking about that idea, because what you're going to do is you're going to come

up with ideas for the person that could be the impetus for your financial freedom

or for the business risk that's super smart, but you haven't been wanting to take it.

And I think most people, they like, they wade in the shallows of life and you

cannot have massive change by going shallow.

And so I like to say, when people want an answer, I like to ask them a question

because I think they know, I think they know deep down inside, but they get scared

just like I did.

And so they wait years to do the thing that they knew they should have done

earlier.

And I don't think you need a guru or a podcast to tell you that.

I think you've got to break your frame and say, I'm super capable.

If I was going to do this crazy thing in six months, if anything was possible,

if I really believed in myself, what could I do?

Who could I go to that could make an unfair advantage for me?

And I do think that book, Who Not How, people usually read it as leaders

because it's a lot about hiring.

But I think it's actually about life.

And I think usually your answer to freedom is a who, not a how, uh,

because often for hustlers and people who are going to work hard, you know,

one or two people who are very wealthy or who run big businesses.

There are a few people in your ecosystem that you could go to and become their

hustler for them.

And that can lead to fantastic financial reward because most people are not

relentless in the pursuit of the things that they want.

If you can be relentless, you can accomplish way more than the average person.

And most of us, you used a phrase earlier on in this conversation,

which really stuck with me because I've used this phrase with my friends over

and over again, you said you got to see behind the curtain.

And I remember the first moment in my life where I really felt like I got to see

behind a curtain that I didn't even know was there for anyone listening to this

podcast, there's a curtain on my right for anyone watching.

You can see the curtain on my right behind that curtain.

There was actually a room in there and there's actually another studio in there

where we record some content, kind of like a standing up studio.

We've got some backdrops and stuff like that.

But the analogy that I'd give you is in life, you never know how many other

rooms there are behind the wall.

And there was a point in my life where I started understanding deals and the

public markets and how certain high net worth individuals were playing what I

call money games.

They were basically not doing much work, but they understood the laws of money.

So they could buy things at an arbitrage or flip things at an arbitrage and

make, put them on the public markets and all of these crazy money games that

no one had ever told me about in life.

I thought the way you build wealth is by working and these fuckers, the richest

people I know do very little working and they do a lot of money games and they

live behind the curtain that I didn't even know was there.

Um, and I was thinking about the cab driver there.

There's so many, what is behind the curtain?

The cut behind the curtain is a bunch of information.

That's essentially what it is, you know, a bunch of people that have a bunch

of information, what I might say to that cab driver is like, who can take you

behind the curtain?

Even if you have to go get a shit job for six months.

Like you are alluding to it.

They're like, is there a guy or a woman that I could go just shadow, just

make the fucking tea and get behind the curtain and figure out how they do it?

Yep.

Like if you wanted to be the best podcast in the world, or you wanted to be a

good podcaster, you come, go host your Rogan.

If you can go clean the floors, you know what I mean?

A lot of people don't want to want to do that.

They want to work their way there, but so much in life is about information, right?

And the information you, you don't even know that you don't have.

Oh yeah.

When did you see behind the curtain?

We worked in finance.

That's unfair.

Yeah.

I think, I think it is a hack.

Um, I saw behind the curtain for the first time when I had managers and bosses

who are making tens of millions of dollars a year.

And I realized how little they worked, like you said, but also how average

they were.

You know, I saw these largely, you know, middle-aged dudes who, um, were no

more impressive than I was, and they were crushing it.

And instead of having envy or hate for that, I was super curious.

I'm like, ah, this guy can do it.

That means I can do it.

Then I think that's a huge unlock, actually.

I was talking with another friend the other week, and I think one of the

secrets to success might be when you see somebody who has more, who is doing

better, who has more money, realizing that means that you can get it as opposed

to I hate them because they have it.

If you can flip that mindset on the other side of that lives nothing but opportunity.

And, and it keeps, I keep finding new rooms in the house, new curtains behind it.

And I'm not sure that will ever stop.

I mean, I was talking to my friend, Bill Perkins the other day, who's a hedge

fund manager, and Bill, um, is very successful, huge, you know, compound

house we're walking around at.

I'm like, this place is pretty nice.

And, uh, and he said to me, Cody, um, you know, do you think that you, because

you've been around small business for so long, small has infected your thinking.

And I was like, oh God, you know, I don't fuck.

I don't know.

And, and, but then I realized to him it had because he's got way more zeros.

Than I do.

And so like those zeros become unlocks to the curtain.

I mean, the, the other day I was flying home yesterday or flying here yesterday.

And I sat next to Jeffrey Kent, the CEO and founder of Abercrombie and Kent.

And he built that business up to multiple billions of dollars before selling it.

He, uh, played polo with the king is quite close with King Charles.

And, um, you know, uh, also has traveled the world, came from nothing in South

Africa, was in a town in South Africa where there are only a hundred white people.

Which is fascinating.

Um, like mostly was barefoot all throughout his childhood, um, and created

the luxury travel market, essentially.

And I was just sitting next to him on, on the airplane.

And I kind of looked at his watch and I was like, that's a nice watch.

And I sort of looked at his mannerisms.

And I was like, I just have a feeling this guy is worth a lot of money.

And so I started chatting with him.

I just said, you know, hi, like I'm Cody and you know, why were you in town?

What were you doing in con and, um, he lives now in Monaco.

And what I thought was so interesting is when I talked to him, I said,

what do you think the secret is?

Like you're a billionaire, like what is that?

How, how do you become that?

And he said, there's really one ingredient to success and that

ingredient is the thing that everybody has, but everybody wastes time.

He's like, I ran my company for 61 years, 61 years running one company.

He goes, can you imagine what the compounding looks like in 61 years

focused on one thing?

He goes, this generation cannot imagine.

And, and then we went a little deeper.

And I said, you know, what do you think is the biggest difference

between entrepreneurs today and entrepreneurs when you were really in the

game, because he's in his eighties now.

And he said, well, back then we, we were explorers of the only frontier

that still existed, which was business.

You know, they were the, the privateers asking money for the king and queen

to buy a ship to go to the, to the new land, right?

Except he was doing it in a business sense.

He went to China in 76 and was the first person to open up the Chinese market

to travel, you know, he, uh, broke so many bones, uh, playing polo that he

had to retire at a young age.

Like they were hard men.

And I think about it with, um, with, with us today, I think that we've

become a generation of vitamin D deficient, uh, all birds wearing, uh,

computer programming, alternative milk drinking softies in many ways.

And some of my most successful friends who are worth so much monetarily,

their health is not very strong.

They don't adventure and they don't have true difficulty.

And I think that's the difference between his generation and ours and

between true success and not is this idea that I'm sort of playing with

like a third degree human, somebody who has a strong mind, a strong bank

account, a strong body, those three things all together.

And where we don't just take other people's risk, meaning take other

people's money to run our business, but we, we take the risk ourselves.

And I think his generation really did many things wrong.

I don't want to glorify it, but I think they did that right.

And how much more interesting is it to do these big, huge things?

And maybe if you do that, you break the frame entirely.

Um, and I, every time I meet with a billionaire, my mind just kind of,

it expands a little bit more.

And I think it's the same way, like the first time you met, like my

parents weren't millionaires when I was growing up.

So the first time I met a millionaire, I thought, whoa, like this is,

what is this magic land?

You know, this person has so much money, they don't know what to do with it.

And then you meet the first deck of millionaire.

And then you've meet the first hundred million there.

And at each level, not that we want to worship money or the money that is all

there is, but it is a scoreboard for a game that a lot of people are playing in

the society.

And I think it's interesting to try to get in those rooms and these days,

those rooms are open, you know, back when we were first doing our businesses,

a billionaire didn't write a book, you know, or do a podcast or tweet or go

shake your hand at a conference that was unheard of.

And now they're all around.

What have you noticed in billionaires?

What's the trend, you know, people, I've met quite a lot of billionaires now,

and there tends to be some similarities.

They all get there in different, by different routes and different paths,

but similarities and character and philosophy.

Yeah.

One is I've found most billionaires I've met have a mission so big it

dwarfs the pain that comes with building because I do think it's more comfortable

by and large.

It's more, it's like the low dull pain is being in a job.

You know, that's like kind of like having a little ache constantly being in a job.

Being an owner, an entrepreneur, or trying to strive for billionaire status is a

roller coaster ride of extreme pain at some points, or maybe you'd say extreme

pain at some points, extreme pleasure.

And you kind of go like this, right?

You have to be able to wade through that.

And so I find that most of them are the opposite of what I thought they'd be.

I thought they'd just be like Scrooge McDuck, like swimming around in their riches.

They'd be kind of shallow.

Maybe, you know, maybe they'd be super self-interested.

They'd only be focused on their own thing.

They wouldn't be nice.

I wouldn't want to meet them.

And actually what I find, they're in, this is going to sound like a gross

generalization, but most of them really want to help you up when they realize that

you're hungry, like when they see the hunger paired with the ability and

willingness to take action, they want to help you.

It's so rare.

Like if you're listening and you have that desire, but you actually do the

hard things, you're rare.

You're actually really rare.

Cause everybody says they want it, but nobody really wants to do it.

I mean, I knew I had to fire one of my employees back in the day, which made

me really sad.

The second that that person told me that they had a bunch of debt, uh, they

were working in the business with me, obviously, they had a bunch of upside in

the business, but they decided to take some of their cash and they were going

to invest in a day, day trading, uh, thing in the stock market.

And I said, I really don't think you should do that.

I think if you want to take that cash and buy a business, we should talk about that.

I can help you, um, if you want to focus more on a secondary business that

increases your income, but if you want to day trade, what you're telling me, so

that you want to get rich fast and you want to speculate that you want to get

lucky, you don't want to earn it.

And anyway, they kind of laughed and then they did the thing.

And that was in that moment.

I knew you don't have what it takes at this level.

Maybe you could change, but if you're going to make that decision now, you're

telling me you're a short-term player and long-term games with long-term people

like Naval Ravikant said, is the goal.

So that's what billionaires have.

They think longterm.

I was actually just talking with a member of my team on the taxi on the way over

here, and there's a close to a billionaire that I've become friends with here.

And I was like, why do you think he's inviting us to do this stuff?

You know who this is.

And, um, and I was like, I'm not a big enough name for this.

Like there are other people, you know, what's the thought here?

And then what I think I realized is that this guy is taking a bet that I might

keep growing my social platform and I might keep spending on it.

And in two to three to five years, I might be a really big name.

And because he associates with me now, when he needs something in two to three

to five years, I'll be really big and he'll have like a remember when moment here.

And he could go get a Damien John, right?

And pay to do something with a Damien John, but then he doesn't have the remember

when moment because Damien's already at the top, right?

And so that billionaire, almost billionaire is thinking three to five years out with

a potential call option, aka a maybe possibility.

How often do we do that?

I don't even do that enough.

And so that's where I think they're different.

It's just this different scope because probably they see many curtains.

With that long-term view, they want to water some seeds, right?

I can totally relate to that.

I've often say been perplexed in my life by why extremely rich people wanted to give

me a hand, especially when I was like 18, kid with an idea, all the enthusiasm in the

world, you know, but you know,

you almost don't trust it, right?

It was so weird.

Yeah.

I've described it as being so unusual over and over again every year for the

last 10 years that when I was 18, 19 years old, and I stood on those stages and I went

around again, stealing the Chicago town pizzas in my spare time to feed myself.

But all of these really successful people wanted to give me a hand, like wanted to

introduce me to someone, you know, invest in my business, even though I had no credentials.

They just saw something in me that I never understood.

That would be an interesting thing to try to break down.

What is it that you see in another human?

I mean, one of the things that comes to mind for me is how many people reach out to

you every single day, a DM, you know, I'd love to meet you, Stephen.

Could you help me with this?

Could you, I would get a guess a lot.

None.

I was going to say that seems like that doesn't track, but okay.

So probably a lot.

But what I found is interesting is in the beginning, when I was starting to be a

little public, I would respond to almost all of them, almost every single one I would

respond, but I would respond like this.

I would say, happy to help read this book, uh, and then do X, Y, Z thing for me.

Something very small.

I'm like, read this book first, do this small thing.

Do you know how many people did that?

Fuck all.

None.

Fuck all.

That's a great saying.

I'm going to use that.

Fuck all.

Not a single person actually did that.

And then if you compare that with, I think I've hired five team members now who all

reached out to me with value they gave right away.

One of them did this a deep analysis on my business.

Another one basically wrote up this whole piece like she was me.

Um, and it was incredible.

And for those individuals who actually asked nothing of me, I gave them a job and

opportunity and many of them make six figures plus.

And so there might be a secret there that just the humans who do are the ones who

follow up.

The, the DM tells me everything I need to know about the person.

Yeah.

And I, I can give you every example of every DM that I ever get and how I

filter them, how I know from the first DM, whether they are someone that I should

be connecting with.

Let me give you the one side of the spectrum.

The one side of the spectrum, which I often get is any jobs go in.

In that you've told me everything I need to know because not only could you have

checked if we had jobs available on our many websites where we list our vacancies.

You didn't even have enough effort to like go check out the job site.

Um, didn't say hello, poorly structured message.

Um, you think that we hire over DM on the basis of no pitch at all.

That's the extreme example, but it happens.

You wouldn't believe, I will get any jobs going once a day without fail on one of

my inboxes and sometimes, and I've never said this before, on the very rare occasion,

I'm saying once a year, I'll click on the person's profile and I'll care about them

so much that I'll send them a voice note because I look, I click on their profile.

I remember this one kid and he kind of looked like me and he was a young kid.

And I remember thinking, I really, you know, I could just ignore it.

It's easy thing to do.

The hard thing to do was try and give them some feedback on like, please

don't do that to more people.

Please don't send them any jobs go in question mark.

So I remember sending one particular kid like a voice note saying, right,

listen buddy, I'm on your side here.

Here's some advice.

Um, and then on the extreme end, the good end, what happened with that?

What happened?

No response wasn't he, he was thankful.

Oh, that's good.

But when he responded, I realized why he was the type of person that would send

any jobs going, maybe a bit of a maturity issue there.

Sure.

And then on the other end, you have the perfect reach out where someone

realizes that they can't give you what they're asking to take from you.

So someone wants maybe an hour of your time.

They know they can't give you anything worth an hour.

They can't give me 50 K.

They can't nothing.

Nothing they can give me worth that hour of my time.

But they do two things, three things, maybe the first is they realize that.

And so they realized that they should offer something of value, even I'm never

going to take it, but the gesture itself, it's like someone pulling out their card

to pay, the gesture itself matters.

The third thing is they realize the world that I live in and that I have no time

and they acknowledge that.

So they might say, listen, you get thousands of messages like this.

Um, I know how busy you are.

So just by them saying that, I go, okay, you understand.

Could I, could I just sit?

So I see it as an equation, ask for as little as possible and give

whatever you can.

Could I just sit in the room one day when you work means a lot to me.

The third point there is research the person because that's a huge show of care.

I know you're a big Manchester United fan.

I know your dog's called Pablo in exchange.

I will, I don't know, fucking, I will, I've made this jacket for Pablo.

I've so knit myself.

If someone said that to me and people are going to do this, Pablo does not need a

jacket.

We're coming into summer, he likes being naked, um, but just showing you, you

made an effort.

Oh my God, it's the keys to my heart.

Yeah, that's true.

Um, and then ego is a great thing as well.

Everyone has an ego.

So just acknowledging you've, you've done your research on someone is another

huge way.

Yeah.

And I think the sneak too, if you're listening is like, skip the famous

people, they get enough, like forget it.

Like, yeah, just skip them all.

You know, even like sort of famous people, like skip all that and go to the

people with money because often they're quiet.

People can't find them.

They don't get a lot of reach out.

And so if I was young and hungry, I would skip the flash, skip the, the

Bentley's, skip the Rolexes, skip the fame.

And I would go straight to like, who's the richest sprinkler owner, you know,

like who's the guy on your block that has the biggest house that does

something that sounds so boring to you?

Because you also learn the most from like the level, like closest to you.

And if you can kind of like level up a little bit, you know, if you go from you

right now to billionaire and billionaire goes, the thing is you got to work hard,

kid, you're like, I don't know what that means, you know, but if, if you go to the

next person and you're like, no, the thing is you have to send this exact email,

which is what I sent to this person.

They're so much closer to your climb.

You know, they remember the steps.

Um, and they want to meant they want someone to mend, mend for you.

And they want to meant they want someone to meant mentor.

They do.

Yeah.

They'd be most flattered by, you know, that I have 300 sprinklers around London.

Like they would be blown away by someone taking such amount of effort and care to

research them.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And, you know, and they probably had to do really interesting things to create

their wealth that weren't single events.

You know, if you reach out to somebody who is now I know about the show on Love Island,

like, what are they going to teach you?

Like, yeah, kid, be charismatic, kind of hot and get on a TV show.

He's application form.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Like that's not okay.

And then have a bunch of money and get famous.

Uh, but if you reach out to somebody who built a toilet business here, like that's,

there's probably a lot they had to do continuously over time that you could

learn from, but it's not that sexy.

So people don't do it.

A quick word on Huell, as you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm

an investor in the company.

And I have to say it's moments like this in my life where I'm extremely busy and

I'm flying all over the place and I'm recording TV shows and I'm recording

shows in America and here in the UK, that Huell is a necessity in my life.

I'm someone that regardless of external circumstances or professional

demands wants to stay healthy and nutritionally complete.

And that's exactly where Huell fits in my life.

It's enabled me to get all of the vitamins and minerals and nutrients that I

needed my diet to be aligned with my health goals, while also not dropping

the ball on my professional goals because it's convenient and because I can

get it online, in Tesco, in supermarkets all over the country.

If you're one of those people that hasn't yet tried Huell or you have

before, but for whatever reason, you're not a Huell consumer right now.

I would highly recommend giving Huell a go.

And Tesco have now increased their listings with Huell, so you can now get

the RTD ready to drink in Tesco Expresses all across the UK.

Why is it important for you now, the last two years you've started making

content, why do you think everybody should make content?

What are all the upsides you've seen in your life, some of the unexpected

ones too, please, that have resulted from you becoming a content creator?

What's the most unexpected one?

I wanted every single person that I wanted to reach out to, to pick up my phone

call. Like, I don't ever want to be the person standing in line at the club.

I want to own the club.

I want to get the invite.

I'm actually another good example.

I was just with my friends in Cannes and they were like, let's try to get

into this party or this party.

I'm like, I was invited to this one.

I'm going to go to this one because I don't like doing the hustling to try to

get into the, I don't like it.

I've never liked it.

It's probably a, like I should get better at it.

I should get over myself.

Who cares?

But I was like, I'm not going to try to like finagle my way in.

That's the short-term game, right?

Right.

And it feels gross and it feels thirsty and I want to be thirsty.

And so creating content is a way for you to have unfair access in a world.

You know, these days, how do I become friends with billionaires?

Because they watch my weird content on laundromats and car washes and they

see something in it.

And so that, if, if we truly believe that money is power, I think the way you get

money is usually people, which is like a theme we've kept coming back to.

Most people on the internet, I think try to explain how smart they are.

And what I hope to express is like, I'm not that smart.

I just found people, you know, and I think we can all do that.

So that was one, I don't, I don't want to be standing in the line of the club

trying to like finagle my way in.

I want to find that.

What's the, what's the back door that nobody's talking about where they

can bite you into it?

That's one, you know, the second is, let's pause on that.

Yeah.

Cause I think that's, it's, that's not just a nightclub analogy.

That's, that is a philosophy towards every facet of your life being the

magnet or the peacock instead of the door to door sales person.

Yeah.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, all my companies have grown on this basis.

All of my companies have grown on the basis.

This is maybe my biggest, one of my least shared business secrets is that all of

my companies don't have outbound sales teams because we make content and we

know, I know that 99% of my competitors are going to go the door to door salesman route.

They're going to go network at events.

You will, in the last 10 years, you have never seen me swanning around a network event.

Content is networking.

You will never catch me.

I won't have a business card.

I'm not going to hand it to you.

I won't even be there on stage, out the back, meet people.

Hello, hello, hello, out the back door.

Straight back onto LinkedIn to start making content.

People don't realize that and it's much easier.

It's a much more sustainable, more cost efficient, long-term strategy.

If you know how to do it.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, and if you actually want to see me like sweat, it would be having to

go network, small talk, like, oh God, I want to die.

And I had to do sales for so long in finance.

You know, finance is just all sales.

We used to at Goldman.

We had like a spreadsheet that they would track every single day, how many

cold calls you made when we were trying to sell a deal.

And it was awful.

You know, I remember one time I was like pretending like I understood golf.

And so I'm like, oh, that's great.

Like, how was, how was the game yesterday?

Did you, did you get the goal?

And they were like, what the fuck are you talking about?

You know, I don't know anything about it, but miserable.

It's like a fishing rod versus a net, isn't it?

The fishing rod can only catch one fish.

Yeah, it's true.

If I throw that fucking net out, which is making a banging video about the

subject matter or the industry, I could catch 300 fish.

That's exactly right.

It takes same amount of time.

Yeah.

I mean, it's push versus pull.

Yeah.

Do you want to have, do you want to pull people to you?

Or do you want to have to push and, you know, scream?

And I just am not interested in that.

So that's why I think content is so, so powerful.

The other thing about content is you find your humans.

I mean, it can get, it can get a little lonely, you know, having built a bunch

of stuff and had some success.

And I've had many times where over the years, the person that I've become is

not the person that the people I love loved, you know?

And so I had to, I had to move past that.

Yeah.

And it's, it sounds, you know, everybody, I will often tweet things that are things

to myself.

It's like notes to me and that happens to be in a tweet form.

And one of them is like, you know, you get in a room with people who are smarter

than you and then you leave when that's no longer the case.

And that's not saying that you get rid of friends, but typically they'll get rid

of you.

Like when you're outgrowing people, it's uncomfortable for the people that you've

outgrown.

They don't like to see that you are moving forward at such a fast progression,

which I wish it wasn't that way.

But, you know, I had a girlfriend that I was friends with for fucking, you know,

now I'm feeling old, but like, you know, almost 20 years, like 18 years.

And when I started getting like kind of notoriety on the internet, I didn't

realize it bothered her, you know, but it did.

And so, you know, at one point she's like, you're posting about all your other

friends and not me.

And I was like, Oh, I only post business stuff.

You know, I didn't, I didn't, my parents aren't on, there was no personal

stuff on there.

I keep that pretty private.

So I didn't realize that was important to you.

And this was a rift that just like never healed.

And so I think that happens continuously, but I like content.

Cause then I find the humans who actually want you to win, like get super

inspired by that.

And when you find those people, I think it's worth more than the winnings.

Amen.

Amen.

There is a shedding.

People don't talk about this enough that when you start putting yourself out

there, especially when you start becoming a quote unquote thought leader,

yeah, the people that knew you before, look at you and think,

who the fuck does he think he is?

You think you'll, you think he'll Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Steve?

Yeah.

Like come back down here with us.

Right.

You know, that must have happened to you in a big way.

Yeah.

I think definitely, I almost think of my life as being in school, leaving to go

to university, dropping out of university, being a, being pretty much alone and having

a chance to reinvent myself and then emerging as who I really was.

And, um, I have no current friends that from school still, well, no one that I

speak to you from my school days.

And I have no one really, even from that university phase, everybody has been

since because you know, this is what I'm into.

And so it's a new person to resonate with or not resonate with.

It's, it's, I think that's actually very, very true.

I think can't like, if you had friends that were super excited for you still at

this point and were curious and growing and they don't have to be

monetarily growing, it could be totally different.

They could be obsessed with MMA.

And all they want to do is, is do do Jetsu, but that's, that's their area of,

of expertise.

You would, you would respect that and value that and you guys could stay friends.

But what typically happens is when you grow a lot, it's this, it's like holding

a mirror in front of somebody else and saying all the time, why aren't you doing

the things that you can and the things that you could be capable of.

And when people see that mirror nonstop, they start to look at you and think,

I don't like what I'm looking at.

And so I've, I've really had to come to terms with that too.

What my path is is not perfect.

It's not right.

I mean, sometimes don't you wish you could just like actually Netflix and chill?

Like you didn't want to achieve all the time.

I certainly do.

I'm addicted to achieving.

I love it.

I wish I could slow down sometimes.

There's a big difference here actually, because you said you started on this

path at 30.

Yeah.

So maybe the reason I didn't experience it as much as I started at 18.

I hadn't built a career and I hadn't built social circles around me when I

started to make content and started these businesses and started, you know,

talking on the TV about business and whatever else.

So I didn't have as much to shed as much of a built up identity to shed.

But I do, I meet people all the time that are, you know, 40, 50, that are

thinking about making an identity pivot that are like trapped by the identity

and social circle they've built and the expectations that comes with that.

It's a good point.

Yeah.

It's harder.

The bigger the walls you've built in terms of identity and the more established

your identity is.

I think that's a really good point.

Yeah.

I mean, I think I had to get divorced, quit a job, move a city and change a lot

of things that weren't who I felt like I was.

Are you happy now?

Way happier now.

Yeah.

But, you know, it's a miserable thing leaving another human behind, you know,

like, um, you know, I don't, I don't wish divorce on anybody.

I don't like, whenever I meet somebody who's divorced, I always say, I'm sorry

and congratulations because it's kind of both.

Um, was your decision?

It was my decision.

Yeah.

We just wanted different lives, you know, he, he was very happy.

And a white picket fence country club life and, uh, wanted a couple kids and

wanted to stay really locally based and kind of wanted me to not work.

And so when I thought about my life, I was like, I want to live all around the

world and I want to build something so big that I can't sleep because I need

to create it.

And, and I want to leave a legacy that is not, um, managing director at a

private equity firm, um, and I'm not ready for kids and, and I'm not sure I

want to have kids with you and he really wanted me to change.

And I'm not sure that we should ever try to change somebody that we're with.

There's going to be thousands of people that have heard you say what you

just said and think, fuck, that's me.

Yeah.

I'm in that job with that partner in that city and I just know I'm unhappy.

I can just feel it.

There's this like sense of, you know, there's a signal inside me telling me

that I shouldn't be here and I can, I can hear it.

Sometimes I, I justify it away or I try and drown it out.

But I know what would you whisper to that person?

What did you, what would have been words helpful words to this Cody at 36 to

whisper to that Cody at 29?

Two words my dad said to me, which is exit tax.

So when I left, it was expensive and both physically and, and emotionally.

And, and I told my dad about it and he said, there's always an exit tax to freedom.

And that stuck with me because I was like, Oh, this is just, this is just a toll.

It's just a payment.

But once it gets paid, what's on the other side, that word freedom.

And one thing that really helped me actually when I was going through this,

which all this is funny because I don't ever talk about this stuff.

But, but I got a little place like I had like the big house, all the stuff,

whatever before, and I got this little tiny townhouse right afterwards.

Actually at one point, like I couldn't get into my bank accounts and stuff.

And so I didn't have much, but I got this tiny little townhouse that I rented.

And that tiny townhouse nesting in a place that was just my own, that felt

really safe was one of the weirdest unlocks that I've ever had.

I now think about it as the power of place.

If you can just have somewhere else that you go to that is just yours.

That's my biggest recommendation for people that go through, let's say a

divorce or a really tumultuous, you know, change in partner is there's

something about like a glass of, you know, I would have like a little glass of

wine or a cup of tea in this tiny little townhouse, but it was mine.

It was like, nobody else's, I didn't have to share it.

I didn't have to compromise.

I could just be me.

And from there, I could sort of recreate again.

Um, and I've heard that now from many, many, many women at least who have

been divorced that like that next little tiny place is really important.

And I, and I think if I could do it again, I, I'll go back and buy that place.

And I'd like, maybe I'll buy a few and I'd give it to women, like or men, right

after they get out of their thing, because it's almost like you need to

stand on your own two feet.

Again, you forget how to.

So I would just remember there's an exit tax to freedom.

And then on the other side, don't, you know, I like to say, like, you know,

I don't think you shouldn't strive for divorce.

You know, I think marriage is tough and relationships are tough.

And there's a huge benefit to working through things with one human for life.

I take that very seriously.

But if you are in fact in something that is unhealthy and that you should not be

in realizing that the other side is so much better than I ever could have

imagined, I mean, I would not have the life that I live right now, which is

pretty fucking great life if I had stayed on the side of easy.

And now, you know, when I told my mom, she like cried for days and, you

know, questioned it and, you know, it was like, how are you going to do this?

And now, uh, she's the opposite.

She's like, you know, yeah, it was such the right decision.

I'm so happy for you.

And we'll say things to me like you were so brave, which is weird for me to say

out loud, but that you did that because most people would stay.

Um, so that's what I would say.

There's definitely freedom on the other side.

Do you set goals?

Yeah, definitely.

How'd you set your goals and what goals do you have?

Well, one of the ways that I figured out, uh, how to get divorced was actually, I

set a date on my calendar.

So I was like, I'm going to commit to fixing this and therapy and all of this stuff.

But if, and here's what we're going to do.

And here's the plan.

And if we can't fix it, and this is like my drop dead date, because I was such a

wuss, I couldn't do it unless I put on a calendar.

Um, so I'm a big calendar person.

I, I really like having a deadline when I was started writing this book, my due

dates in like four weeks or something like that.

And it's not like I look at it frequently, but it's just out there.

Yeah, it's just this, it's this thing that gets put in your psyche and somehow

you can work backwards so much easier from a date.

So it sounds so silly, but most humans will say, well, in one year or three years

or five years, I'm like, put it on your calendar, like whatever that actual

timeline is, and then try to work backwards.

And then for most goals, I believe in short-term goals, a hundred percent, maybe

daily, weekly, monthly, annually, but three or five year goals.

Who knows?

I mean, you wouldn't have thought you were doing this two years ago.

I wouldn't have thought so either.

So like, I might have a really big vision for 10 years or 20 years.

But as I get closer, I might realize, oh, God, actually, nope.

That's not what I want.

So allowing yourself that freedom to not want to be the hot, sexy, rich

millionaire with Bentley's and instead say, oh no, what I actually want to do

is I want to talk about what I want to talk about with whom I want to talk

about owning companies I want to and having no master.

That's what rich looks like for me.

And if you had stuck with your original goals, that wouldn't have been the case.

You got team members, employees.

Yeah, some of them are here listening.

And does it not feel like it's a bit of a contradictory message in some ways

where you're trying to get them to stay?

But part of their job is to get produced content with you, to get

other people to leave their jobs.

Yeah, so I have a really important differentiator between equity and

ownership in a business and skin in the game.

I do not think everybody wants to be a founder of a business.

I don't think everybody wants to be an outright owner of a business.

I think everybody should have ownership always.

And so the way that looks in our business is basically every single

person who works for me, even all the way down to my admin, gets skin in the game.

So that means that if they do X and Y and Z, they see how they can make

more money directly.

If they come on to my team, they can all source us deals and get a percentage

of the carry, which means equity in the underlying companies.

I know you know that, but for anybody listening, everybody on my teams

always has had that.

And then, you know, the other members of my team and businesses before,

like my last, uh, number two, I then left the business to her.

She became the CEO of the business.

So she has ownership of the business.

I don't, I should be really careful about the fact that if anybody on my

team, and they already know this, we just sent a message yesterday,

somebody asked for like a testimonial from me about work that they had done,

but their work wasn't very good.

So I wasn't going to give them a testimonial.

And I said to the team, any one of our high performers, if you ever

want to leave this company and you're great at this company, one, of course,

I'll open every door for you and I'll write any testimonial or whatever you need.

And in fact, if you want to start your own business, I hope I'm the first

phone call because I would like to invest in you.

I want to be that guy that saw that in you, no doubt every single time, but

that's not for every human.

Some humans want to be in a business like my number two, my CMO, Chris, he

doesn't want to run a business himself, but he does want ownership.

So he has skin in the game from both a revenue perspective and from a

followership perspective.

Same with my head of content.

Same with Christian and our AdSense and our YouTube channel.

So I think it's really important that you make sure when you continue

to work harder, you make more, no matter what.

So many people have philosophies towards money.

You know, people will say, oh, you got to save more than you spend.

You've got to fucking not have the Starbucks coffee.

That's how you'll get rich.

What is your overarching philosophy to building wealth and money?

Do you have something like a philosophy, a mantra?

Well, first, I think you should have the fucking coffee.

I think that is terrible advice.

So I like Dave Ramsey.

I get where he's going with it, but I think you cannot save your way to wealth.

You can only earn your way to wealth.

But my mantra overall is that I think every human on the planet should

understand the language of money, which is finance.

And if you understand the language, then you can speak it fluently.

And when you can speak it fluently, you can become an expert and an

expertise leads to a bunch of cash.

And so everything we do is to try to normalize dealmaking or the language of finance.

We're like the Duolingo to finance on the internet.

And I think, I mean, we have a goal of we want to create a hundred thousand

small business owners and one million financially free people.

And we track how many people tell us they bought a business and how much

revenue and profit they earned.

And so my goal is before we're done with this, however long that's going to be,

I want to hit those two goals.

And I think we'll hit them in the next five years, maybe seven.

But that's that is that is the gold star for me.

That and my new mantra, which you might appreciate, which is my 2023 mantra

is like no more B players.

Oh, my God.

Because that was my 2021 mantra, my 2022 mantra.

I'll be my 2024 mantra.

Have you seen those stats where it shows about sitting next to B Plit?

So good.

My friend, Vanessa Van Edwards, showed this to me.

So there's a study done across.

Hundreds of individuals might be hundreds of companies.

It's a big study.

And essentially it shows if you sit next to an a high performer.

So if you have your team sit next to a high performer, you do.

You will outperform by 15 percent.

So a high performer just in your proximity will increase your performance

by 15 percent.

If you sit next to a low performer or under performer, it will decrease

your productivity by 30 percent.

So every B player you bring on board is not just decreasing

their productivity by 30 percent.

It is that energy transfer, which is that everybody around them

becomes a little bit less productive.

And I think one of the reasons people want to be owners of companies

is because they feel that people want to stay at companies

where there's a bunch of winners.

That's why I liked Goldman.

I was like, these guys are so smart.

I'm learning so much.

I want to keep going.

When I was a vanguard, I was like, oh, my God, these schleps

are just schlepping around the office, not doing anything.

I'm not learning anything.

And they're by design sort of pulling you back and down.

And so I keep that number on a notepad next to my computer

for me to one, not be the under performer.

And two, it's not just about getting rid of under performers

for you as a CEO.

It's not good to do to your team.

So, you know, we've definitely have have had them in varying companies of mine,

but we push relentlessly to either make people better

or help them find the thing that they can be an A performer at.

Do you know who's very sticky in companies?

Who? B players. Oh, God, I know.

C players will get fired.

B players will hang around.

That's exactly right.

And A players will probably leave.

Yeah. And well, A players will leave if you keep B and C players.

They're gone. They're not interested.

B players will hang and they will think that you owe them more

is what I found. Yes.

They are the ones that ask for the most.

They're the most entitled and they're the most dangerous in a company.

It's like a cancer that you need to cut before it spreads,

which sounds like, OK, really?

But it's actually true because your employees are choosing

to spend their life and their time with you.

And so every B player that you associate next to them

is actually decreasing their time.

And that's not a fair thing to do to somebody in a company.

Doesn't make firing people easier.

It's never easy. It's never easy, but it's important.

Yeah. What's the most important thing you think we haven't talked about?

You know, we talked at the start of this conversation about who's listening

and you gave me the three personas and we talked about that person

that's maybe in that job and they're trying to find their way out.

What is the most important thing for that person that we haven't maybe yet?

Maybe just one of my team members was saying this on the way over.

They're big fans of yours.

They listen to all your stuff.

And are they a players and looking for jobs?

Yeah, actually, one of them lives here and and is a

is freelance so he could work for you if you touch my other one.

I'm going to have to be over.

Which one's the A player?

They're both A players.

OK, we're pretty good.

I definitely wouldn't travel around with B players. No chance.

So the and he said something that I thought was really good, which was

he was listening to your podcast

and he liked one in particular where you talked about

like all the the failings of people who are successful.

And so the only thing that we haven't talked about is the fact that.

You know, we say all this stuff like don't keep the players around.

Get rid of them, you know, do this, get better.

And and and on the flip side of that, like there are many mornings

where I'm up at eight or nine and not five in the morning.

And there are many mornings where I'm stuck in a tick tock,

you know, Instagram, K-hole, and I'm not doing the thing that I'm supposed

to be doing. And I think normalizing the fact that people who have achieved

things also are awful, fuck up.

Don't do the right thing every single day is important to me because

sometimes I get on these and I'm like, I don't want people to perceive

that I'm on some high horse that's incredibly capable and productive.

That's not always the case at all.

I have many periods where I have not done the right thing,

where I've messed up on business deals, where I am the worst in the room.

And and I think that's OK.

It's natural. We're human.

We're going to mess up.

So just making sure people know that.

Listening, you don't have to be perfect to do any of this.

And in fact, I'm sure you would agree.

We're both so flawed that if I can figure this stuff out,

I think any working John can figure this stuff out, too.

I'm no smarter than anybody else.

I went to a party school.

I didn't go to Harvard.

You know, I probably did more beer bongs than I did, you know,

honors classes in college and and I still figured it out.

And it took me until I was, you know, twenty nine or thirty,

but that's still pretty young.

So we have a closing tradition on this podcast

where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest.

I love this question.

They said,

when was the moment you were most afraid?

If they don't want to answer it.

Who's your favorite member of One Direction?

That's great.

But you don't tell them who the person was that's fine.

One. I couldn't even name that.

So I'm going to have to answer the question.

When was I most afraid?

Actually,

funny, they are a comedian.

I'm going to give it away.

Oh, OK.

So when was I last most afraid or when was I most afraid ever?

This is sort of silly, but.

I hiked a mountain called Mike Mount Baker and

it is a technical climb.

So you use ice axes and crampons and it's freezing.

And I didn't really know what I was getting into.

And I don't like the cold and I don't like heights

and I don't like camping.

And so three days hiking a glacial mountain that's very high.

It was like probably not my best idea.

But I but I did it and.

I hated it.

Like for three days, I was with all these other women

and they kind of like liked it and I to be fair,

I like kind of thought I was tougher than them, you know,

and they know this so they can hear it.

But, you know, a lot of them, I have this big career.

I come off as tough.

I can, you know, get out there and go do it.

And then here I was on this mountain.

I'm fucking miserable.

I'm scared of the heights that I'm going to fall off

and tumble to my death.

I'm freezing.

I have to sleep on top of a glacier.

I can't sleep.

You're carrying your your feces in a bag for three days,

which is another fun little side note.

And we get up on the second day.

It's so vertical that you have to be roped in to each other

on the climb and I'm at the end of it, too, which is awful.

So I all like, you know, I'm the one that sees behind us.

The guides in front, there's like six of us or four of us

on a rope or something like that.

And we get up after climbing for two days.

I'm so miserable and mad that I said yes to this.

And we're on this crater because there's a volcano crater

before we climb up, what's called the wall,

which is an ice wall before you get to the top where you have to

step like, like this with your ice axe to get up the wall.

And I like, I'm like, I almost want to cry.

I can't think of anything I want to do less than this.

And everybody's preparing to go up.

And and I'm just like,

I don't think I'm going to I'm not going to go up anymore.

And I had all these ideas in my head, like, but if you don't

summit, like, then you're not tough and you got to get up there

because these other women are going to do it and then you're

going to feel bad and whatever.

And as I sat there, I was just like, what am I trying to prove?

Like, I'm pretty happy.

Life's good.

Like, I don't have on my bucket list that I want to summit

Mount Baker.

I just kind of said yes to this trip.

And it wasn't even the heights that was so scary or the cold.

It was like, am I like a failure by not doing this tough thing

that everybody else is going to do?

Am I going to be the one person that says, like, I'm out.

I'm going down.

I'm tapping out.

I'm done.

And I like, I have this whole dialogue with myself.

And then I told the guide and there were a few of them.

I was like, yeah, the thing is, I'm going to go back down.

I'm going to chill at like base camp.

I'm not going to summit.

And my girlfriends came over and they were like, let's talk about this.

Let's get motivational.

And I'm like, no, totally fine.

I just realized up here that most of my life, I've been trying to

like, please a bunch of people to goals I don't care about with

things I don't really want in order to achieve some ridiculous thing.

And like, I don't want to climb up there.

I might be pissed if I fall and break my neck doing this thing.

I don't even want to do.

And so I tell the guide, he's like, cool.

I've never run faster down the side of a mountain.

I get down to the bottom.

I'm happy as a fucking clam.

At that point, I realized I have altitude sickness.

So I'm like tripping balls in the tent, which is really good that I realized

that because then when I was climbing the wall, I might've gotten dizzy and

that wouldn't have been good.

And I didn't realize when you got altitude sickness, you it's hallucinogenic.

So the tents like moving as I'm laying in it, but I'm great because I'm back

in the tent on the, the like a second peak area.

And then on the way down, like two of the women blew out their knees.

It was like a six hour evolution.

And I just remember thinking, fuck, like, what if I had done that thing?

I was so scared of just because everybody else told me that I should have done it.

And I felt like it took more courage for me to not do the thing than do the thing.

So many people are right now climbing a mountain where they don't even care

about seeing the view, right?

You know, right?

Why do we do that?

So, yeah, I think sometimes, you know, they say everything you want is on

the other side of fear.

And it's like, if the thing that you want is the thing on the other side of fear.

It's not every fear we have to charge into.

And so I guess choose your mountain wisely, right?

Amen.

Thank you, Cody.

Thank you for your time, your wisdom and your entertaining, captivating storytelling

and, uh, and insights.

It's really, really valuable to our audience.

There's not many people like you out there.

So it's so wonderful to get to speak to someone.

And the mission that you're on is such an important one.

I love it for so many reasons.

I love it because you, you glamourize the unglamorous.

And I often think in so many facets of our life, the easiest way is in fact, the boring way.

It's the way that isn't going to get the likes and the applause on Instagram.

And there's not, there's not a market for that, right?

There's a market for the quick, shiny six pack abs in three minutes, all that stuff.

There's the market for that or the NFTs, the cryptos, the get rich quick schemes.

You present the important counter narrative and you do it as an incredibly powerful, honest, willing

to be vulnerable woman in business.

And we need more of that because business and the, the, the crater world, the entrepreneurship

community is heavily dominated by men right now.

And that is, that is not a bridge that, um, many people can relate to those stories and

where they've come from and the battles that they face.

So you present the counter narrative and it's a very important one.

So I also bet on you, like our mutual friend does in a big way.

And I can't wait to see your evolution as you climb that worthy mountain over the next couple of years.

Well, thank you for having me.

This was a pleasure, totally different podcast.

I can see why so many people listen to you.

So thank you for having me today.

You're very kind.

Thank you, Cody.

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Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.