The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett: E248: Mia Khalifa's Heart Breaking Reality Of Being Controlled By The Adult Industry

I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do to make it go away or to make them stop. I I didn't

Are you okay talking about this?

Can we take a break Mia Khalifa Mia Khalifa Mia Khalifa

I'm Sarah Sarah and Joe Sarah Joe the former adult film star now business owner and social media activists with over 50 million followers

Where should this story start?

I lived through a lot of conflict in Lebanon and then I moved to America and I

Was bullied for being Middle Eastern. It was around the time of 9-11. That was pretty difficult

Made a lot of choices that I can't take back your husband when you're 18 years old is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry

What did they stand to gain from that?

fetishization

I

Fucked up because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it. Do you know how dangerous and predatory that is?

What was your anxiety at its highest?

The company going after me publicly the major production companies prey on vulnerable young women

Didn't shower didn't brush my teeth and eat didn't leave my bed

It's following me for the rest of my life

But I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced

For people that are really struggling. How did you get out of that phase?

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Thank you and enjoy this conversation

Where should this story start where where should where does your story start?

What is the most sort of pertinent moment that you recall from your memory?

That is shape the woman that is sat in front of me today

It honestly feels like

The last year or two

That's that's where that's where my life started and where I should start because the woman that's in front of you

Right now has been a work in progress and is still a work in progress

and I feel like I've been my

Like my most authentic and purest form of myself in the past year or two

Like the closer to today we get

the more secure I feel in who I am and

Who that person is but obviously there was a lot of other things that

Happened to get me to this point, but

Yeah to answer that question like a year or two. Let's start at the end then which is today. Yeah, why?

why

The closer we are to today the more authentic you feel to yourself. Why I'm

I'm going after the things I actually want and I'm going into my confidence and

The self assurance that I've gained from from doing the things I love and accomplishing my goals

Has formed who I am and it feels really good and it feels very validating and it's just

It's never clicked before and they always say like oh the

Confidence is the key to everything confidence will unlock everything for you and I never really understood that because it's like okay

where the fuck does the confidence come from how do you just simply get confidence and

um, I have grown to realize that confidence comes from

um

Just accomplishing things that you want to accomplish and being proud of yourself and that pride

Makes you feel confident like I I feel confident even when I mess up now. Whereas if I messed up

five six

10 years ago it would send me into

A pit of shame

A really unhealthy

Just

Downward spiral that would get me nowhere

Did you ever imagine being here?

Did you ever imagine being

In the state you currently are today happiness confidence, etc, etc

and I don't want to put words in your mouth there in terms of the word happiness, but

The place you are today

In the recent over the last ten years, did you imagine you would get to this point? Or did this seem unimaginable?

It seemed unimaginable for a while

But my mental health was also not as strong as it is

today, um, there was

There was a lot of periods in my life where I couldn't see past

48 hours let alone 10 years. It was very day to day for a while and

I think that's why I'm so confident because right now if you ask me what I can see in 10 years

I feel like I can answer that. I know what I want. I know what my goals are and what I want to accomplish. So

Yeah, even in interviews five years ago when they would ask me, where do you see yourself in five years?

I would always say I have no fucking clue

I don't know where I see myself next week

And what changed?

Taking risks honestly, um

just taking a few risks here and there and seeing them play out for the better and

learning from my mistakes and learning what I want and

Saying no to a lot of things to get to what I want like job opportunities and and things that didn't really align with

What I thought I wanted in a year or two or five years or even 10 years as like my confidence started to grow and

I started to actually see

life plans for myself, um

taking taking risks and

walking away from those risks either having them play out for the better or um

Learning from the mistakes and learning. Oh, this didn't work. This is what I need to do next time. Oh, this didn't work. I crossed my own

I I crossed a boundary of mine and now I don't feel good now. I know

This is past where I should be pushing myself. Um a lot of trial and error

Confidence confidence is a through line throughout your story. Um

Take me back to your earliest memories of lacking in confidence

Yeah, and where because you know, I came to this country from Botswana in Africa when I was a young young boy and I struggled

I think we both struggled with

um being accepted by the culture we had arrived in

Me and Plymouth only black kids curly hair trying to figure out why my hair's not straight relaxing it chemically all the time

Um, why were there any black family in this all white school?

etc etc and then that battle with like

The lack of enoughness not feeling like I was enough and what I did to try and make myself feel like I was enough

But take me back to your story at the earliest moment where you struggled with

Um, not feeling like you were enough or confident enough

I mean, it does it's not even coming to America. It's being in Lebanon. There was colorism there

I was the darkest one in my family. There was colorism

At the school that I was at. Um, I felt like a bit of an outsider because I was

Darker than what the beauty standard for a Lebanese girl is which is

Like light skin light light her skin all of undertones dark hair green eyes

Like that's the epitome of a beautiful woman in Lebanon. Um, and then I moved to America and that just got

It went to the extreme side of that. I was definitely one of the

Darkest kids. I was bullied for being Middle Eastern. It was around the time of 9 11. That was pretty difficult

especially since

It was in Washington DC and Washington DC was

heavily impacted by 9 11. Um, the Pentagon was hit

New York is

Not that far from us. It's about four hours. Like

So many people in my school either had family and parents that worked at the Pentagon

it was a lot of

Bullying that then turned into internalized racism and all I wanted to do from then forward

Like you said, you wanted to relax your hair. You wanted to

You you wanted to assimilate and fit in

I also wanted the same thing and I just

Held that in and it it turned into internalized racism

How did that go because I I often reflect and I'm I think it's taken me time to look back in hindsight and realize what I was feeling

Versus in the moment, you're kind of just in a state of like defense

It's like, how do I get through today? How do I get these people to like me versus?

You know, and I look back and think no, man, you had so much shame

Like you were carrying around shame and insecurity. Um, how did that go at that time?

So you how old are you at this point seven ten?

11

um

eight nine eight nine, okay

And how how were you aware of your feelings? I guess is the question. Yeah. Yeah, very much so I think I think

Yeah, I've always been

an introvert and um very aware of of what I was going through and

Angsty and even like going into my teen years. I've always been

Aware of the fact that I what I was feeling is

shame or what I was feeling is

um

I'm not feeling like I'm enough I

Feel like

Yes, I've I've always been aware of that feeling. It there was also confusion with it, but

I think self-awareness has been

Prevalent the whole time

What was your relationship like with yourself in those teen years? I was very hard on myself. Um, I was very

angry at myself for not fitting in and for not being a certain way and um

Yeah, just

I did not like myself

I didn't like the reflection in the mirror and

Me not liking the reflection in the mirror obviously affected my confidence myself esteem everything

So in turn, I also didn't like the choices that I was making which made me not only hate the reflection

But hate the person that I was with at the end of the day

The choices you're making. Yeah. Um, I think insecurity leads you to

Leads you to do things for validation that you otherwise wouldn't if you were secure in yourself or if you respected yourself or if you loved yourself

Like relationship choices

relationship choices, um lifestyle choices at anything

anything

What what are some of those so in the context of relationships from doing this conversation with multiple people?

I've I've started to sort of piece dots together around if your

Self-esteem is lacking. You might become a people pleaser. Yeah in your in your work

So you might you know be exploited by your work and you might not get what you deserve in your job

Is there anything else that you've seen as a symptom or a consequence of having

real low self-esteem

People might be able to relate to

Like for you so much it's such a broad spectrum because you can either turn into a people pleaser or you can turn into an insufferable

A people pleaser on the surface level

Everyone loves a people pleaser. They they want to please everybody

but the downside of a people pleaser is

they want to please everybody they

Have no boundaries with themselves or with other people. They don't respect their own boundaries

they don't respect others boundaries if they're people pleasing person a and

What person b wants goes against what person a wants they will find a way to please both of them. So a people pleaser

also turns into

someone who lies someone who deceives someone who

Is a habitual boundary crosser with themselves and with other people like it's there's there's a spectrum to it

I would say it was definitely a people pleaser

I also

sought validation from

From people who's looking back on it now whose opinion I probably shouldn't have respected back then let alone today

So that is that was a that was a downside

Made a lot of choices that I that I can't take back

porn being one of

The biggest ones but I feel like that wasn't even the first one the first one was

getting into

a relationship that I never should have been in with someone who

was

Extremely abusive extremely

dangerous in the sense that

Looking back on it and and having the self-awareness and and being able to call it what it was is

grooming it was

it was

it was just a relationship that

I feel like a lot of girls get into when they're in their late teens

What what does that happen? What do you mean?

This really getting into a relationship when you're roughly 18 years old, wasn't it the relationship started when I was 16

Okay, then went until I was about 20 and this person was significantly older than you. Yes

Yes, the

age difference was

How to play in that dynamic my low self-esteem how to play in that dynamic

um

everything was just kind of like

16 yeah

This person's double your age. No, no, no, it was about a 10 year age difference. Okay

okay

And at 16 what were you when you looked forward to your future?

Had you asked yourself that question about you know, what happens in 10 years time?

Oh, no, no, I wouldn't have known what happened in a week's time. It was I mean

I got I got talked into a loping to Las Vegas four days after my 18th birthday

So if you asked me where I see myself in five years, I don't I don't know

I would have looked at you with doe eyes and said I don't know and then looked over at him. Where do you see me in five years?

like

I

I didn't have

A sense of self so I attached myself to someone who

Was more than happy to abuse that and someone who could see that and see someone easily

Manipulatable. Yeah, but at the same time

Eager to please so

Yeah, it was just the perfect storm perfect storm. Yeah, you got married at 18. Yeah, even that is

Uncommon to say the least. Yeah

Do not recommend it

So when you say that this this, you know, this person clearly took advantage of several things that were present in you

Whether that was low self-esteem or

You know, just general inexperience and naivety of being a young a young woman

Which direction in life did they push you towards?

Did they push you towards becoming a

A really good partner to them or do they put you push in a professional direction or was it do they pull you towards themselves themselves?

yeah, it was

There was there was no encouragement. There was no pushing towards anything. It was an extremely

unhealthy relationship and

I I even feel weird calling it a relationship because the dynamic

Was not one of a relationship. It was more one of

someone who

Saw a toy to play with

um

they were

There

The industry they were in is probably not the one that you're thinking of they were in the army

so

It wasn't even

It had nothing to do with

The porn industry, but it also had everything to do with it. They were the ones who

Kind of

Put that whole world in front of me and encouraged it and they encouraged it

Oh, very much so your your husband. Yeah

I struggle to understand

this

How so your husband when you're 18 years old is encouraging you towards the adult entertainment industry

it started off as

just online

But then eventually yeah when when I was

Asked to to

I was given I was given a business card and told to think about it. I went home. I

Laughed it off and the consensus was you should do it. I think it would be great. That's what I mean

Okay, so you're um, I read the story you were out out at lunch somewhere someone a guy walks up to you when you're

how old

20 and gives you a business card and says if you ever want to consider getting into the adult entertainment industry

Here's my number. You take that home. I was wondering this when I read about that part of your story. Um

What happened post that business card, you know, because I was I think it was she was married

so

You know, I've got a partner my my girlfriend comes home and says a man's come up to me in the street

And given me a card and made me an offer like that

um

My I'm gonna be honest my natural disposition would be to like fucking burn the card. Yeah

like well, they were also

unhealthy had mental health issues that

I don't know if they've ever addressed but it's a sickness and

They were not the right but what the whole point of this is when your relationship with yourself

Isn't right. You are not going to find the right person. You're not going to choose the right person. You're not going to choose someone who

Wants the best for you or will bring the best out of you

because

You don't want that for yourself

Well, what were they getting out of it? You doing that you accepting the invitation from that business card?

What did they stand to gain from that?

fetishization really that was it

So there wasn't a commercial element or anything like that for them

Do you forgive that person?

No, I forgive myself. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's a need to forgive people in life?

um, I think you need to forgive yourself for if someone has crossed your boundary

You need to forgive yourself for letting that happen for giving them a position in your life to hurt you like that

me telling you that wasn't to

Explain or shift blame it was to give context as to where I was mentally

How would you from from that point onwards from 20 years onwards then for the next couple years when you look back at the the mere

Sarah

Sarah. Yeah, would you prefer to be called Sarah?

Yeah, yeah, but it also it's not I don't take offense to I did I did

A while ago, but I don't take offense to it or I don't feel like my name's actually Sarah

It's either or you prefer to be called Sarah. I do. Yeah. Yeah, okay

um, so that's Sarah through that period of your life characterized by low self-esteem people around her

Capitalizing on that in various different ways you in your own words not knowing better at that time in your life

Um at that point in your life 20 21 22 you go and study, right? So you you study at university

again with the aim of

Pursuing some kind of academic academic or professional pursuit

And what was that history history? Yeah, they didn't really see

Even then I didn't see like a like a future doing anything. I just thought I really enjoy studying history felt like

Watching a movie like it I I'm enamored with like it

It's it's my favorite subject. It felt like the easiest thing. Um

The second easiest thing is like psychology. Oh, I love psychology. Yeah, exactly. They're the interesting ones. They're the juicy

They're the juicy majors

I didn't see myself doing anything other than

Whatever I had going on the next week and then I guess the furthest I thought ahead was I guess I'll

Work in archives or work in a museum or something. I didn't have a plan like oh, I want to be a teacher or something

I've heard you talk about weight loss and weight related issues attached to the self-esteem conversation

What role did your weight play in um all of this and the self-esteem and the confidence and

Body image issues and all of that. I think a pretty large one

my weight

Now still fluctuates and the more that I've worked on myself in therapy the less that

bothers me and my and it affects my relationship with myself

so even

In the months where I feel like I do not look like myself. I don't feel like myself

I've let myself go a little bit. It doesn't affect me the way it used to 10 years ago. Um, I don't fall

Yeah, I don't let it get to me as much anymore, but it did for a very long time because it was

I weighed like 60 pounds more than this

Which is a lot

That's a huge amount of weight to lose. Yeah

I read that the ways that you lost that weight were slightly um

Troubling. Yeah, I mean I wasn't eating well. I wasn't

Exercising well. I had unhealthy habits. I was young

Therapy you went to therapy that's helped you get to to where you are today

What role has therapy played in your life and when did you first start going to therapy? Oh the biggest role?

2016

Yeah

The biggest role. I don't I mean, I'm still in therapy. I

Don't see myself ever stopping really

I cycle out therapists. It's like

Yeah, I love it. I love I love feeling like okay. I'm ready

I'm ready for a first start. I'm ready for someone new. I'm ready for a new perspective. Um

It's it's it's a way to keep me grounded

Every week I have to sit down and analyze

Myself my my thoughts my past like

I have to dig down and actually come face to face with the decisions I've made the

My ways of thinking my my my relationship with myself like there's accountability with therapy

And I think that's the biggest impact. I guess accountability

Yeah, what are the what it when you've dug down and sought to understand yourself

Um, what are some of the key takeaways you've taken from from therapy?

As it really so when I think about that question if I was to be on the receiving end of it

The one of the first things that comes to mind is actually my my ongoing

Evolution of understanding why I was so avoidant in relationships

Like always running away from any woman even if I pursued her and then she turned and said, okay

Let's be boyfriend and girlfriend

I would just bounce and I had sort of like toxic model of like what love was from my parents

But then also all the shame and insecurities like I think I'm ambitious. No

I'm being dragged by this need to be enough, right?

So those are kind of the two two top line ideas that I took away from

My experience was sort of introspection. Are there any like big picture ideas that you've taken away from therapy

That were epiphany moments connected dots

That's a loaded question because I I'm so grateful for all of the information I've learned about myself like like the

Dots I've been able to connect like how

Being triggered by something

A friend of mine says is actually related to the way that I felt like

The way that I felt ostracized on the playground when no one wanted to play with me and like one little thing

even though they didn't mean it that way or or even

Had any malicious intent behind it has then taken me back to

That 12 year old girl who just feels so alone and doesn't know what she did wrong and and just wants to people please and

I think the best part of therapy is

Within a split. Yeah, have you seen that so raven?

Oh, it's this show with raven samon on the disney channel when we when we were growing up and she has these visions

She's a psychic and she just like stares off into space and then she zooms out and then she zooms back in and no time has gone

but she saw maybe

30 minute vision play out um, but she comes back and it's been like a split second and that's how

That's what therapy feels like it takes me back

and I analyze that moment and I understand that that

moment is not this moment and

my friend

cares about me and she's not actually

Trying to make me feel like no one wants to play with me on the playground just because

She said you can come if you want and not I want you to come. You know what I mean?

um, I think that's

That's the magic behind therapy. It gives you time traveling superpowers

has it has it

Changed your perception of the period of your life where you enter the adult entertainment industry

Has it has it changed your perception? How yeah, absolutely. I spent so much time wondering why did I do this?

This is not me. I was in it for such a short amount of time and the entire time I was doing it

I was also asking myself every day. Why am I doing this? What is wrong with me? What is wrong with me?

That's like the number one question and

I know what was wrong with me. I had low self-esteem. I had no boundaries with myself. I didn't respect myself

I didn't like myself so many things were wrong with me and all of these things

anyone can work on

It's hard. It is it is hard though. It's hard once you become self-aware

There's no going back. I think I cried more in the first two years of being in therapy than I ever did going through anything

I did in my in in my in my life in my adolescence and my early teens and anything

This is why a lot of people don't get a therapy. It's hard. It's hard. That self-awareness is like, I mean

It's it's it

No, and especially once you start realizing things about people in your life that you've kind of put rose colored glasses on for all your life

To make up excuses or to kind of change the situation in your head so that you don't actually have to face what the reality was or

or

The fact that wow, this is actually a really situation this person that I

Love who's supposed to support me who's supposed to be there for me was actually not that great in hindsight not even in hindsight in

In 2020 site in actual vision

And the um the shedding that takes place when you can you become that's a great way. Yeah, that's great

That's exactly how it feels slowly letting these pieces go

um

What's interesting is when I read about your your life post

The adult entertainment industry, which was only a couple of months anyway all in all. Um

You sounded incredibly isolated. So when I think about the word shedding

I think of all these people that you're letting go

But in that period you sounded like you were alone. I remember the story of you going to austin and meeting your friend on twitter

X all those kinds of things

Take me to that period then so you you you make the decision that that that career is not for you. Um

What happens the next you know the next day week month

Post that fucking loneliness. I was living in an efficiency in an efficiency is not even a studio. It's

Where this rug cuts off to that wall that

Is wider than what it was but definitely the length my

toilet

My bathroom sink was also my kitchen sink. There was no stove. There was

A broken window that I had tape over and there was only one window. It was it was like it was it's a room

I think they're popular in south florida or like

I don't think you have them here because I don't think they're legal to like sell as living spaces

um

Very lonely extremely lonely, but

At that point in my life loneliness was better than what I was doing before and that I think was the start of

The tiniest tiniest tiniest bit of confidence

That gave me the confidence to take the risk of

Moving to austin and starting a new life and I was so lonely. I was so broke. I was so lost

I was so confused, but all I was completely 100 sure of was

I don't want to do porn. I've never wanted to do porn. I'm never gonna go back to that

and standing firm

on my ground in my morals in my boundaries in

Just everything that that was like the tiniest glimmer of

confidence starting to grow

Standing firm in my boundaries. Even if I didn't know that was a boundary. I couldn't pinpoint it

I couldn't call it that I didn't know what it was. I didn't have the verbiage or the knowledge or the self-awareness to

To call it what it was, but that was how it started. I would not if I

If I hadn't moved to austin, I wouldn't have started therapy. I wouldn't have that

that was the domino effect of

In a positive way in my life. It could have gone a completely other way and it does for so many people and I'm

so so so grateful that

I was able to get out

That first domino falling which took you to austin in that in that new direction

Was there a catalyst? Was there something that pushed that domino?

Because I noticed that in this in the sort of timeline of events you then at the same time separate from your partner

Around a similar time. Yeah, and then you leave the the adult entertainment industry

Is was there a catalyst because those two things those two decisions are huge decisions and they feel correlated

They feel like they're attached

I had nothing to lose and I think that I also knew I need to get the fuck out of Miami

I was in Miami at the time and it was where everything happened and I just did not want to be there anymore

It was it it felt daunting. It felt like walls closing in on me everywhere. I went

um

Was there like a catalyst day though something that happens that makes you go fat? I need to or was it just slow?

Yeah, it was it was I mean it was the day I met my best friend on twitter

I had I didn't meet her that day on twitter. Her and I had been following each other for a while. She was

Post memes. I liked them vice versa. Um

She we her and I were talking about something. Oh, she said i'm looking for a roommate

I'm asking around the office for a roommate and I said, what if I moved to austin?

I don't want to live in miami anymore. And then I started looking up

How do you move states? Like what does it take? What does it require?

What paperwork do I need for my dogs? Like all of that stuff and then within a month I was packed up and moved

And was that was there a catalyst for you deciding to leave the adult entertainment industry even though you're there for a couple of months?

Was that I think I think it was

How overwhelming everything became so fast

Ah, okay, like that that was the reality check

It was like it was like a like like they when they turn the lights on at the club at four in the morning like whoa

The floors are sticky and nothing looks the same. This is not what I

Signed up for it's not what I expected. I fucked up

That's not a typical experience for an actress in that industry. No, not at all. It's a very atypical experience because

You went from obscurity to

To number one in an industry in in weeks. Yeah

So you you got hit by a fucking truck. Yeah

Okay, that makes sense

Okay

You become a paralegal

Yeah for a very short period of time

Like six months. Tell me all about that

Nothing really much to say. It was for an insurance defense firm. It was pretty boring and it was very much like

Like corporate the insurance company that they represented was

It was Geico. So it was like a very boring thing and it was

It was just paper pushing. Um, it was really weird to work there

especially since that was my first job where

I did it I I did the application and I went into it thinking this is the shift. This is this is me

putting Mia Khalifa behind me

And this is me like trying to be a real human. Um, did not work everyone in the office recognized me

It was a very uncomfortable work environment not because

not because anyone was

overtly

inappropriate it was just

simply

Being in an office knowing anyone who walked through did a double take and it's like are you

so

That was uncomfortable. Um, and then after that

I worked at a construction company just doing bookkeeping and office work and same thing. I would have to go on a job site and

The owner of the company just

made it so I like I

I can't go on job sites. It was a distraction. It was not a good idea. It was

people would be that in that situation people would be inappropriate sometimes, but

Yeah, I I started to feel like a burden in the office is where I was

And I hated that feeling and I was actually sitting at that

construction job in the office

When I was talking to rachel and the dms like I'm gonna move to austin. Let's do it

anxiety

yeah

Has that been a big part of your life for much of your life?

Yes, very much so and I think that has been prevalent from the very beginning

The very beginning is in since you were a kid or a teenager. Yeah, probably even in utero

I mean my parents grew up in the civil war in lebanon and I lived through

A lot of conflict in lebanon whether it be civil or

The surrounding countries or whatever but we left for a reason and it's because it was dangerous

So I think I've always had that

Like I jump when I hear a noise

I jump when someone who's been in the room for four hours with me speaks even though they haven't because they haven't spoken in

10 minutes like I get scared like I I'm a jumpy person

Probably because of that

When was your anxiety at its highest?

2019 2020

Okay

So that's post austin. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was when it was post everything but it was

in the midst of

the

porn company

going after me publicly and

Re-releasing things and digging up

Footage that was corrupted in in 2012 20 in 2013 whenever it was shot and releasing it

Like it was new and that coming back into the new cycle and them just being

Extremely abusive and exerting

Improving that they still have control over me because I signed a contract that says in perpetuity on it

Your life had had started to move. Oh, yeah, I was married again married again 2019

You're where are you living at this point? I was living in LA. Um

Yeah, I was living in LA. I was doing my own thing. I

was

starting

To figure out what it was I wanted to do and and where I went like things were really good that year

It was it was the year I had that little cameo in

That incredible show rami

That was that was really

That was a huge moment for me and I'm so grateful for that moment

And I'm so upset that that moment was kind of overshadowed by all of the negativity that came from

um the

The porn company in the subsequent months

the porn company um

Coming off to you and attacking you not something you would expect from a company

A billion dollar company at that. Yeah, it goes to show you how petty and personal it is

um because the people who are behind it aren't aren't exactly the ceo's it's it's the

board pseudo producers who

who

Don't like that. I am out here talking about

my experience

It it's very much

Individuals not the company but these individuals do have

The power to speak on the company's behalf. What are they threatened by?

I think they're threatened by

Like you said earlier

Most people in my position aren't in my position because

they

This is the outcome that the girls want who enter the industry most of them who enter the commercial porn industry

Um or the mainstream porn industry

They they want the fame. They want the infamy. They want they want all of that. Um

And I think for the first time

these individuals are experiencing someone who

Is fully aware of what was happening and is fully aware of what is and is an ethical and has the platform

And the resources to speak on all of those things

What is your opinion of the industry now? I have a very

Unfavorable opinion on it, but

I do think that there are ethical and unethical ways that you can support sex workers and consume porn as

as someone who

Is a creator or as someone who is simply a consumer. There are ethical ways to do it granted any company has its downsides like even only fans

has trouble

policing and and regulating the people who are on their site and the

Every company has its downsides, but I would say that the major production porn companies are all predatory and abusive and unethical and

Pray on vulnerable young women

And even me saying this I already know that some of the responses back are going to be from women in the industry that say

No, it's not

No, it's not. It's great. It's fantastic. Everyone is so nice. I love this company. I love working with I love all of this and

To be honest with you. I think that that rhetoric is grooming

I think that if you're going to enter the industry and you're going to be an advocate for it

It has to it has to come with a caveat and that caveat needs to be

You shouldn't enter the industry unless you've already kind of been in the industry

It shouldn't be a first option for you. Like that shouldn't be something that you simply go into because you like it

Think about it more wait on it more

It the age to go into the industry should not be 18

You're putting contracts in front of 18 year old girls that have the words in perpetuity on them. Do you know how dangerous and

predatory that is

These are three four five page contracts

Jesus christ

I mean any contract when you're 18 years old, although it's like the list reading the legal verb. It's jargon. It's literally another language

I was thinking about Miranda rights. We don't really have like Miranda right

We have our own version of it here, but you do you think I'll save the queen?

I've never been arrested. I'll let you know

But but you get read your Miranda. I watch all of these like a us crime interrogation videos

It's like how I fall asleep. Don't don't worry about it. Oh, wow

But I see them being let's go back to anxiety

I see them being read their Miranda rights before they get interrogated and then they get offered a lawyer. Yeah

Seems like maybe

From what you're saying, that's not a bad idea

if there was some kind of like

Implications clearly stated to people that are considering entering the porn industry at a young age

And the opportunity to have a lawyer or at least legal representation to impartially explain

As a as a third party the potential

Um implications for better or for worse, you know, I don't think that's ever going to be possible unless

the laws change around

what

Around around the the rights that they have it's just those two words in perpetuity

In perpetuity what vicious words?

Yeah, not not forever not not in your lifetime not in our lifetime

On in in perpetuity of all lifetimes in all existence. Who needs that much control over a young woman's body?

They still own the website with your name with your yeah

There's nothing you can do to have that website taken down

I mean there is but

It's a very expensive lawsuit against a billion dollar corporation. It's a conglomerate. They also own

The it bang bros isn't the only company under that umbrella. It's

It's a very

It's a very wide reach

The peak of your anxiety 2019 2020 if I was afloat on the wall inside your

Your apartment

Wherever you were living back then what would I have seen what would I observed?

I

Didn't shower didn't brush my teeth didn't eat didn't leave my bed was crying all the time anytime

I would open my phone. I felt I felt like

I felt like a prisoner in my own body and in the world more so not just in my own body because

I I didn't

I couldn't scream loud enough. There's nothing I could do

To make it go away or to make them stop on it. Honestly

The worst part about it was I knew that if I if I went on and actually spoke about how

How how much it impacted me

That's that's what they would want

That that's that's exactly what they would want

They were very annoyed that I started naming them by name and that's when everything started these individuals

value their privacy more than anything in the world and it's because

of

All of the unethical and immoral things that they've done throughout their careers

in this industry

so

They all go by

aliases too being called out by their legal government names was

Not something they took kindly to and that is

why they chose to

release the video that

The footage was corrupted of 10 years ago

That's that was a pornographic video

Okay, so they started releasing more videos because she was speaking out against them

And they started doing a variety of other attacks making like mini

Instagram documentary clips of you which I thought I find I mean you you'd expect like a jealous bitter x to be doing something like that

That's exactly what they are. You know not a corporation. That's exactly what they are a jealous bitter x

I look I look at all the decisions I've made in my life

And I think about you know being 18 and deciding to do this or that or 25 and doing this and fucking up at that

And you people look back and they say there's always a silver lining

Is there a silver lining?

Yeah, I'm really funny trauma makes you funny

Built character

No, of course, there's a silver lining. I'm sitting in front of you today happier than I've ever been I've

I am not the sum of the things I've been through or the adversities I've faced. I'm not

the silver lining is

Fucking happened. It's over with

It's not over with actually it's following me for the rest of my life

But I am no longer in the mental space that I was back then so it's over with for me

And you get to make your silver lining

Yeah, and that's that's what I feel like you've done

Is you've made a silver lining because there's clearly you could have gone several ways

Yes, that's true

What are the ways you could have gone?

I was acting on instinct. There wasn't at the time when I sat down and thought what do I want with my life?

I I needed a job. So I acted on instinct. I applied to things that I felt like I could do. I'm good at paperwork. I'm good at

I'm good at um

just

Administrative things I like I like being left alone. So I didn't want a job where I was working with like I was always acting on instinct

There was never really a plan. What felt right it felt right in the moment to get an office job

It felt right in the moment to leave that one and go to another one

It felt right in the moment to leave everything and move to austin

It felt right in the moment and austin to well actually

I had a very that was the first time in my life where I started

forming a

Core group of friends and people who are still in my life to this day

um, and they were the ones who convinced me not convinced me but

Kind of encouraged me to go to therapy

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depression another word

Different to anxiety in many respects people often characterize it with like thoughts of the past and they think of anxiety as worries of the future

um

Depression is another word that I read a few times throughout your story

um

Again, is that something that's kind of been with you throughout life or is that was that

Post moving to may at miami. It was really that 2019 2020. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I went on

Lexa pro. I went like I that was when

I mean, maybe I was depressed, but it was never diagnosed

I had two therapy sessions a week and

a

Psychiatrist and I was on lexapro. I was on propranolol. I was on

Beta blockers everything for anxiety depression

All of that all of that was in was in 2019 2020 the when

when everything started to kind of get rehashed and I felt like

The angst think I'm very very grateful to be out of

the depths of my depression, but um something that does keep me up at night anxiety-wise is where things are headed with

AI and

Deep fakes and things like that because that feeling of

Of

Being violated all over again and having no control

Like it's like trying to run in a dream as hard as you as you try

It's it's impossible and it's a very daunting feeling and you feel claustrophobic and you feel like you're

trying to breathe underwater and

All of these really really awful things that that are out of your control. That's what

That's what that feels like and I try not to think about it for too long, but

The AI stuff feels like that in the deep fakes. Yeah, okay

That is fucking terrifying. Yeah

Were people worried about you 2019? Did you have people around you that were worried about you at that point?

I did I did. I'm very grateful. I did

Because i'm trying to think of this this step people take when they go and have therapy or they go to the doctor and say listen

Something's wrong with me. You're at home. This stuff's happening online. This porn company are targeting you

What is this? What is the what was the catalyst in that moment to make you go?

Do you know what I need to go get help? Oh, I was still in therapy. Yeah, and my therapist said you need a psychiatrist

Really? Yeah, he said

I I'm like you need a psychiatrist. I can't prescribe you antidepressants

You you need you need a psychiatrist. Here's some recommendations

Again, so what's life like I joined a tv show

So uh things changed for me, you know, people start stopping you in the street and coming up to you in the gym and stuff and you know

I you know, it comes with the territory of what I did. I was well aware of what I was getting into

Also, I joined the tv show and I was like 28 29

So you kind of like you're probably a bit more

Prepared mentally for things and you understand the world a bit better

And you're not trying to impress people as much as I was when I was younger

But it was still an adjustment to say the least

Um, what was life like for you that post miami period? You're now leaving on with your life

You're trying to you know, this porn company come for you. What is a life like day to day?

When you go to the coffee shop

I'm kind of glad you asked that because it's a huge contrast to what it is now

Even though it's kind of still the same I would get recognized and I would get come up to and I

would get asked

Like take a photo with someone all the time, but my reaction to it is completely different than

than it is now I

Would want to crawl into a hole and hide away and be ashamed. I

Was I was so embarrassed. I felt like a

Like a warm feeling in my stomach like I had just been punched or like I just found out I was

Being cheated on or something like it's just a very painful visceral reaction

To be recognized and to know what you're being recognized for

um, and it wasn't until

I started to accomplish other things and I started to be proud of things that I've that I've done and things that I've

kind of

shifted and diverted into in my career so those first few

months to a year in austin

I felt very

I had a lot of social anxiety and I didn't go out much. Um, because I didn't want to be recognized. Um, I felt like

I just didn't want to be recognized. I didn't want to be looked at. I didn't want to be perceived. I didn't I

didn't want to leave my house

None of that but is that a form of like self-hatred because you're like no because no because it was more so the people who were coming up to me

College guys like like men, you know

It it it just made me uncomfortable because I knew why they knew me and it wasn't until I started accomplishing things that I was actually proud of

that

that changed I

didn't feel that same like

gut wrenching visceral feeling of shame when I would hear the name mia or or get called in the street or anything like that like I

The more I accomplished the more proud I was of what I've built and what I've changed and and all of these things that I've done

the more comfortable I got with being recognized because

inherently people were recognizing me for other things women started to recognize me

Everything kind of shifted the more that I do and continue to do the more

The more the more that changes like I

I rarely get come like I get come up to more by by by women now than by men

And I love that

What was that path out of the there's a book like from a psychiatrist out on this podcast called the path out of the jungle

for you

What was the path through the jungle? Sorry, but what was the path out of the jungle for you that 2019 depression period?

Like how did you for people that might be in that situation right now where they're really struggling?

What was was it just time? Was it community support? Was it the medic medication?

How did you get out of that phase everything all of that combined all of that combined truly? I don't think I could have done it without

shout out to lexapro without the lexapro without my support system without

Without my job without people in my job

encouraging me to

Pursue what I want to do and and to and to not let fear of

Of having something taken away from me or or having something you had that fear of having it taken away from you

Yeah, of course, of course. They're constantly threatening me even using the name Mia Khalifa

They're threatening using the name Mia Khalifa. They think they have ownership of it

Okay, which they do not it's my dog's name and they tried to convince me not to use Khalifa because they said

No one's gonna know how to spell it

But yeah, I I I'm constantly in fear of they're a billion dollar corporation

Yes, the amount of lawsuits that they field on a daily basis

They're being sued right now by um

By a company that does mlb trading cards because they're trying to do trading cards of

Of actresses

Yeah, you're married around that time, right?

Yeah, a lot of what I read said that that marriage had fallen apart because

The attention you were getting was difficult for your partner

I don't know about that. He's also

Famous. No, no. Well, he's he's a very popular chef. Um

But no that that was more of

Irreconcilable differences. No, I'm just kidding. Um, it was it was a lot. We we weren't therapy for a year

An entire year. We tried I was we were separated for

Three months. I lived in an Airbnb. I moved out of the house like we

We tried it was more so

It just very much came down to

We got married very too early. We got married too soon before we actually knew each other

we got married in the honeymoon phase and

um

We were just very different

tiktok

You've become a tiktok sensation

I don't like to spend too much time on tiktok because you know, I

I'll end up not doing anything with my life. I spent too long on that because it's really addictive

But I went through your tiktoks your comedian. Oh my god. It's a trauma

No, but you know, but you are you're incredibly successful on tiktok

I think that tiktok is my favorite app and I think that I'm very lucky that tiktok is just

It's what it's where I spend the most time. I I kind of just get it

I get it. It was very easy for me. I love tiktok. So suit your personality. Yeah

You've cultivated a group of people there a huge group of people at almost like 30 million people or something crazy

um, who love that

Side of sarah. Yeah, the woman on on on my tiktok are amazing

I'm very very

Grateful for the community of women that I found on there

You the second ago you said about 10 years time plans for 10 years time. You said now you have an answer

What is the answer?

The answer is

Two car garage

Decent backyard

um

Three

very successful

Operating companies that I'm very heavily involved in still I don't plan on retiring anytime soon

and

Hopefully a kid on the way. Oh

In order to have a kid now, there's a couple of routes to having a kid. That's not true

In order to have a kid you can adopt one you can steal one or you can have your own

Um, the all you know all of these paths. I mean, I'm sure there's there might be a fourth path that I'm not

Yeah, I wouldn't mind stealing a four-year-old someone who's already like into cartoons and stuff

Maybe that's the route I go but I go for are you are you in a relationship now? No, you know you're single. Yes

How are you finding that I talk a lot about my guess about relationships and how dating in the modern world is really really tough

It is tough. It sucks, especially for a certain generation

I think got caught between like the digital world and like the analog world. Yeah

Do you find it tough? Obviously people know who you are. You're you're famous. You're super famous. You've got like 60 million followers

plus

Um, do you find it tough to date? Very

Very but I'm also not trying. I've been a serial monogamous for a while. I got out of a

Long term long ish term relationship a few months ago. Um

But

Yeah

It's difficult

It's difficult, but I also haven't tried but I'm I don't I don't know what I'm expecting

I haven't gone into the dating world in

Maybe six years. I've been in long-term relationships

What are you what would make a great partner for sarah?

What would they have to have what would be the jigsaw shape emotional intelligence and a good relationship with their therapist and with therapy in general

someone who's constantly

working on themselves and is self aware and understands the ebbs and flows of

life and emotions and

how

It's not always going to be even keel how it'll oscillate but

Oscillate doesn't necessarily mean go from good to toxic. It means go from good to

needing a little more support than

than you normally have

Men are not necessarily the best at emotional intelligence, but I think I'm not ruling out women. Yeah, good. Good

and business

three businesses

The business the jewelry brand. Can you tell me all about your jewelry brand and um the inspiration for that and your vision for that?

I'm really really excited to launch it. It's called shaytan. It's the inspiration is

Every woman who I've ever admired every

Arab girl who chooses yellow gold over white gold every

just

Women in general huge inspiration behind it. Um, it's body jewelry for the most part, but it's also lifestyle

it

will launch imminently and

Yeah

Why did you choose jewelry?

Because I love it. I was I was custom making the things that I wanted that I couldn't find

easily. Um

Hand lariates and foot lariates and belly chains and broad chains and

Like all all all of this stuff was extremely hard to find. So I was custom making it and paying a lot for it

so

Very excited to put out something that is

Extremely

delicate and precious and beautiful but also

affordable

You know, when you think about like the ingredient ingredients list of your own happiness right now in your life

What is on that list of ingredients? What are the like factors that need to be present for you to feel like stable and um

full

I would say

70 percent alone time

interesting 20 percent

time surrounded by people who

energize and recharge me

and

10 percent

Just

10 percent fuck it

10 percent just if something feels right do it follow your instinct, but like i'm kind of scared of my instinct a little too sometimes

even though

Yeah, 10 percent just listening to your gut

And going back to the start of the conversation. This is because you feel

Closer to knowing who who you are. Yeah. Yeah the most secure in

The decisions I make on a daily basis

And who are you? I'm sarah

I'm sarah fucking joe

And who's who's sarah joe sarah is unapologetic and

Not fearless pretty fearful, but I think that's a good thing cautious cautious and

Secure okay, so unapologetic and then the second one was

Not fearless pretty fearful. Yeah, but in a good way cautious cautious, okay

The unapologetic part I get that I sense that from you

Where did that come from rihanna

Rihanna no really that came from oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, she has a whole album called unapologetic and that

That is what I base my

My personality off of

Why

What do you mean? Why why did you choose to date? There's so many different albums rihanna's made or oh, that's that's that's the one

That just exude that's the one that kind of that was her that was her shift also. That was her moment of

Now I know who I am and I'm unapologetic about it

It might not be the bubblegum pop girl. You thought I was or wanted me to be this is who I am and this is the person

Who's not going anywhere?

Is that a stark contrast from the sarah I would have met had I met you at like 18

Like I want to if I like put that 18 year old sarah there and I had them both side by side

I'm guessing sarah 18 wouldn't be unapologetic. No, what can you describe how her her vibe would have been sat here today?

Shriveled insecure quiet probably or too loud just because insecurity screams

Not

Not someone well actually no that is someone who I would want to be around because I I feel empathy for her

And I forgive her and the journey to unapologetic was

From what I've garnered so far based on the evidence you got from going out and doing things improving shit to yourself

Yeah, that's so important

I was going to say this at the start of the conversation this idea of confidence

People don't know how you said it like how the fuck do you get confidence like where does it come from?

How do I buy one?

But from your and experiences, it's the evidence you gain from doing shit that changes your beliefs

Exactly, it's all evidence. Yeah, you have evidence for like low confidence is negative evidence

Yeah, and the confidence you've thought over the last couple of years is from

Doing really cool shit. Yeah, exactly

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest

Okay, and they leave it written in this diary

Aristotle said give me the child at seven and I'll show you

the man

or one

Is it true that the first seven years of your life

Make you who you are

I think they have a huge impact

just

Psychology speaking like that psychologically. I think those are very formative years

Yeah

Seven years old you could have um whispered some words into Sarah's ear

What would those words have been?

You're amazing. You're enough. You're perfect

Thank you so much, man. Thank you Sarah. Yeah, that's okay

Learning about your story and really like the reaction to the mistakes you made when you were younger is

Incredibly inspiring for me because we all make we all make decisions, especially in our young years that

You know through neither to your other or coercion or whatever it might be. We're not necessarily

You know, we wouldn't make those decisions again and the way you've responded to that and built the life that you're building now

of the back of that and

The audience you've built around tick tock in social media

around your personality and your humor is incredibly

Hope inspiring it gives me a lot of hope that regardless of you know, the the the steps I make in my life

There will be um, there's a way through there's a way through the jungle and that's what your story represents to me

It's incredibly inspiring one and your

Yeah, you're an inspiration for that very reason. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that

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