Le Collimateur: Construire des navires de guerre

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I'm Alexandre Jublain, and today, to talk about boats, big and small, but also more

generally, naval construction and defense industry, I'm pleased to welcome the president-director

general of the Naval Group, the company that builds the main ships of the National Navy,

aircraft carriers, up to the drones passing by the submarines.

Pierre-Éric Pomlain, hello and welcome in the airfield.

Hello.

I have to say a word, just because it's a bit of a novelty for the climator, to

receive a chief of business, even if I'm going to point out that Naval Group is

held 62% directly by the state, and then by the Thales intermediary, it's a company

that fulfills largely legal functions, or at least that was historically ensured by

the state, including in the previous declines of the company when it was public.

But, in fact, the private sector and the big defense companies are historically

a bit of an angle of the podcast, which is a bit of my fault, I didn't know so much

about what to take from it, and we often noticed that it was a bit of a lack, because it's

important, and it's even an essential part of the French defense system, the fact

that the weapons equipment is not produced by the state directly, but by companies

more or less private.

So I'm very happy to be able to do an broadcast with the PDG of one of the most structured

defense companies in France, which is Naval Group, and I hope to do it again

if there are any other opportunities.

I just added an additional word, because you have to notice that all this has been

percolated by another novelty, which is the evolution of the model of the collimator,

now open to advertising, and I said it because I already mentioned it, but these are

space, sponsoring and partnership that are completely open to public and private actors,

and it is not impossible that Naval Group is going to come.

And so the only thing with that is that I can say that I would be very clear and very

transparent on the subject, when there will be advertising or sponsoring with partners,

it will be displayed and announced very clearly as such, and there, this episode of today

is something else.

It is an issue that I can say, which is in preparation for a long time, and since

before I know that the podcast which is very lyrical and will open to advertising, because

I find it interesting and important in the absolute for the collimator to talk with

the director of one of the main companies of French defense.

So that's obviously a question that arises, and at the same time, I think that everyone

can understand the needs of the podcast, so find resources and succeed in an economic

balance, and as soon as that's what I have to offer, it's a complete clarity on what

takes up traditional episodes and on what will take up the future of advertising.

So sorry for this long preview, but it's important methodologically for the podcast,

and let's move on to these discussions, since I would like to enter a little bit in

Naval Group by you, by your course, because it seems interesting to me, since you have

a rather particular proximity with Naval Group, at the time you called it the DCN, even

the DCCAN, the central direction of construction and naval armies, since I find that you have

a father and a grandfather who have worked, who have occupied important functions.

So maybe the first question, what vision did you have of this company or of this

public service, by growing up, what do you understand from what was the DCN, the DCCAN?

So in fact, I was born in it, because I was born in Amrest in 1964, now you have

my age, and my father at the time, he was not a engineer at the DCCAN, he was a

DCN, or Arsenal, as we said, but he was a engineer of maritime work, and he was in charge

of the implementation of the Lillong sample, and he was a charge engineer of the Lillong sample.

So the Lillong is the basis of submarines, it's a place where you don't go often, or

not many people go.

Yes, it's the basis of nuclear submarines, the launch of the British engine, and therefore

at the heart of the French dissolution.

And so in the 1960s, this base was in construction, to welcome the first nuclear submarine, the

Redoutable, which arrived at the end of the 1960s, the beginning of the 1970s, to start

the patrols of the oceanic force of dissuasion.

And it's true, I have this childhood memory of my father in Lillong, we had an apartment

that was given on the Rade de Brest, we saw the work far away, and I think it's

something that marks, in any case, which I remember perfectly well, but beyond that,

we live in the building with my grandmother, who lived under the apartment, I tell you

in any case, my whole childhood life, and my grandmother had lived in naval construction

since her husband, so my paternal grandfather, was an engineer of the Genie Maritime, who

spent many years in Brest, and especially in the 1930s, with the construction of the fleet

at the time, and my grandfather was also the engineer in charge of the Curacé de Richelieu.

And my grandmother lived in this memory of her husband, she lived in Brest, she was

my grandfather, who was himself the son of an apprentice worker of the arsenal.

So we have a grandfather who had worked for him in the machines, so here I think

that we go back not to the last century, but also to the previous century.

So we are going to say a blessed childhood in this Brest environment, of naval construction,

of the arsenal, and no doubt that it forges, not necessarily a career, but in any case,

an desire and a conviction.

You have always wanted to do that, because you are an army engineer,

you have become an army engineer.

You asked the question one day, or were you not really?

Well, it's always an area that interests me.

And then the work side for France is to have a useful service in its country,

there is always something that has ticked me.

But not necessarily in this area, because when you are a young engineer,

you finally get it.

So pretty quickly, I have a second passion that came from the aeronautics.

And what brought me when I had a choice to do, so an army engineer,

that was pretty clear.

On the other hand, I went to Superhero.

But, I'm kidding.

So you therefore went to Superhero?

I went to Superhero because there was the construction of the Portavion Charles de Gaulle.

And so finally for me, the Portavion, so I'm not talking about the top gun impact,

the top of the road, etc.

But it's sure that the aeronaval side marked me.

Besides, I had imagined when I was in polytechnic,

why not be a pilot of the aeronaval?

Unfortunately, a medical visit had disappointed me.

I was inept at the ejection seat, and so it was not possible.

But when I arrived at Superhero,

I did my first flight to Brest on the Portavion's site.

And so there, on the other hand, the conviction is formed.

It will obviously be the armament, but it will be the armament linked to the aeronaval,

and therefore to the naval.

And also curious that it may seem.

Finally, I did not go to Brest to work on the Portavion,

which was really my choice from the start.

For me, there was no doubt.

But I went to Vernon in an establishment that no longer exists,

which was a magnificent establishment of the ADGA,

which was called the LRBA,

laboratory of ballistic and aerodynamic research,

and worked on what?

I give it to you in a thousand,

on the navigation systems of the nuclear submarine, the triumphant.

Yes, but it's very interesting,

because there is already a first interaction,

but which is revealed on Naval Group.

You entered the ADGA,

and then you went to DCN,

which is in the middle of the central administration,

in some way,

the general direction of the armament,

to the naval field.

How is it the same thing?

Is there a passage from one another?

Because through that,

the question of the proximity,

obviously, of what will become of Naval Group,

but in fact of the company,

in any case,

the structure that produces the boats

with the administration that commands them.

So you have to come back in these years.

So we are the beginning of the 90s.

So I am in a laboratory of the ADGA,

but in a function that is essentially naval,

even purely naval,

because it is the center of expertise,

of the navigation system,

of the submarine, the triumphant.

So I work in this team.

You will have a certain amount of work,

let's say, of a classic engineer,

but with a single client,

which is DCN,

and a single integrator.

It's funny, the client relationship,

because you were talking about it,

as if DCN was the client of the state,

while in truth,

it's the state that is the client of DCN,

and who sells the ships to him.

Yes, but at the time,

all that was the state,

in fact, all that was the state.

The LRBA was the state,

but the tasks,

to take terms,

usual terms in the industry,

the work package that was entrusted to me,

so the validation of the triumphant navigation system,

was a work package

in the works of what was called

DCN engineering at the time.

Because the DCN of the time,

in the early 90s,

it was already separating

what was called the static DCN,

let's say the master of the work,

the DGA,

and the industrial DCN,

the Chantier-Naval, the Arseneaux, etc.

And so it was DCN engineering.

After four years in Vernon,

finally, the DCN trade has been strong,

even stronger,

and I went,

so what was called DCN engineering,

to direct the activities

of navigation systems,

and then an extension with the optronic systems,

and all that very in-line with the Triumphant program,

with the Portage-on-Charles-de-Goules program too.

So you were going to do something very close,

but at DCN, instead of doing the DGA, what?

Yes, it was the DGA at the time,

DCN engineering,

the industrial part of DCN,

which went at the beginning of the 2000s,

finally becoming what is Navago today,

was still totally in the DGA.

All that, it was the DGA.

So I think we're starting to get to questions

that are quite central,

what is Navago,

what has become,

whether it is a private, public company,

state, not directly,

let's say like that,

how do you conceive Navago

as a public company,

as a public service, private, state,

So in 2003, so in 2003,

it is an extremely important date for Navago,

Navago changes status,

it is not a status of administration,

a status of business,

and so governed by status of private companies.

At the time, the capital, the action area,

of Navago is public,

but on the other hand, the status is private.

Private status, that means what?

For example, when DCN was in a public status,

it was therefore a very difficult administration

to hire and to have a social environment

around the collaborators of Navago,

allowing them an evolution

in a private status, retreats, etc.

We were really an administration.

So it was the state opened,

so obviously for the workers,

we still have state workers,

because between the status of 2023,

private status, and today,

a certain number of our collaborators

who were state workers kept their status,

and even if we do not hire them,

we still have a very large number of state workers

who contribute, by the way, to Navago

an exceptional skill.

But we hire private status workers,

we have a facility to hire,

according to the rules of private companies,

and as you know, it is not necessarily easy

to hire a private company

that is managed by a budget,

an effective case, etc.

You are also managed by a budget,

do you have effective questions?

Yes, but in a private status,

it is still extremely different from an administration.

So Navago is an entirely private company,

so we keep an actionary.

What happened then in the history of Navago

is that in 2007, Navago opened its capital

to an actionary,

himself private, of reference,

Thales,

who will go from 25 to 35%

of the actionary

of Navago,

which means that today,

the capital of Navago

is held at approximately 65% by the state,

35% by Thales,

so it is a little less in both cases,

because there is a part of the capital

that is held by the employees, a few percent.

Yes, with this particularity that Thales

is also largely held by the state.

No, but it is an interesting question too,

what is the interest,

what is the social status,

but what is the interest of a private company

whose state and actionary

has almost 100% of one way or another,

whether it is directly or indirectly.

What is the interest and what does it use?

Well, it uses

the private status,

I take the

employment, for example.

Well, we have

employment policies,

remuneration policies,

social policies that are issued from the private status,

which are issued from the social dialogue

in the agreements that we negotiate

with the syndicates.

Our collaborators benefit

from all the rights of a private company,

from the private retreat regimes, etc.

So it is really a state, a company,

normal. I mean, it is quite rare today,

by the way, to have public companies

under the form of public administration.

And in the field of defense,

there were a few,

Jiat, industry became an external,

DCNS became

a naval group, and then when we

come back in time,

the aeronautical arsenals,

became private companies

with aerospace, now Airbus, etc.

And then Thales, Domsun CSF,

who for also was in part,

in a very small part, much more than us,

had a notion of public service.

So here it is, it is an evolution

that allows,

just maybe

on the story of a naval group,

a naval group to suffer

from its public status,

when it won contracts,

especially exportation, it needed a great

flexibility on its salary mass,

on its resources.

It was very difficult in the 1990s,

for a naval group, public company,

administration,

to have an effective volumetric

that allowed

to adapt

to its charge, especially with export contracts.

I mean, it would have been

complicated to hire people

and launch on a project that would

finish one day, and after

having difficulties to save the mass.

Absolutely, the administrations

are managed by the public market code.

The public market code has a lot of merits,

but on the other hand,

it is an extremely heavy organization

to go through markets.

In a private company,

we are led to go through markets

sometimes extremely quickly,

when a client asks for something,

yes, you have to adapt in a few weeks,

when it is difficult,

you have to be able to deal with it.

So we are in

perfectly controlled market statuses,

with offers and so on,

with an extremely rigorous compliance,

but we are not subject

to the public market code

as a private enterprise.

Naval Group, TSNS, the summer.

So here are the social statuses,

the capacity to hire

and to adapt

to its charge,

to be able to benefit from the private status.

And then the public market code

has a number of examples that

to operate today

in a competitive way

in an international world,

only the private company status

allows it.

Do you think it will be reassuring

or, on the other hand,

it would be a no-go for foreign clients

to deal with a state enterprise

or an state administration

to buy something too attached

to it?

So the question is subtle

because we must remember

that our sales are always controlled by the state.

You know that we have no right to sell weapons.

We have no right to sell weapons,

except exceptions.

And exceptions are all given by the state

through the process which is called

the control of exports

or the famous Siemge meetings

under the leadership

of the Prime Minister.

And so

an international client

knows that

a sale is controlled

in a certain way by the state.

By the way,

the state participates most of the time

in our sales.

It participates in the training, for example.

When it comes to aviation

or when we sell equipment,

it is often the air force in one case,

the navy in the other,

which ensures training

for the clients, especially if it is

the same nature as those used by France.

So the state intervenes

in the navy,

the state intervenes in support,

the state can intervene in the navy.

On the other hand, the sale itself

is a contract,

in general, a contract itself

controlled by private nature contractual statuses.

We will negotiate clauses,

we will negotiate

all the conditions, of course,

of the execution of the contract,

the penalties of the contract, etc.

We have a political distance.

It is not exactly the same thing,

to buy a French navy

working with the state under the control of the state

and to buy a French state.

To buy a state, but to buy a state

can also work.

There was an example,

especially Belgium buying the Scorpion system,

which is a system

directly used by the French forces.

France has put in place

the equivalent of what the Americans call the FMS.

So a contract from state to state,

from the French side,

to buy, in this case, an external contract,

in a private contract context,

private rights, the equipment we need.

So it's true, I see that by

finding the question,

I imagine all the complexity

of finally understanding how it works.

But what I can tell you is that in the end,

after 20 years, after this change

of statuses, but Naval Group today,

it's a company of 17,000 people,

private rights,

a third of its activity

international,

and who has

this capacity and these

absolutely unique skills

to provide France with what it needs

to protect our fellow citizens,

to protect our nation,

especially when we talk about the system

of dissuasion, and then to develop

an international.

Exactly, let's talk about it, it's

how to do it, so I have

the question, what do you do?

But it's very wide, but at the same time

Naval Group, in 2, 3, 4 programs

that give a little

I don't know, an advantage of what they do

at the moment, what would you choose?

Because you have plenty of programs.

We have plenty, but not so much

in fact, because

Naval Group is a pure

we use a horrible word

English, it was a pure player,

that is, we are an industrial

defense naval.

And besides, the reason to be is to give

to the Navy the means of their power.

So finally, the programs, it's not

hundreds of programs, it's indeed

dozens of programs, there are some

who are extremely ambitious,

visible, and I will come back, since

you ask a little to categorize them,

then there are many, many who are

less visible, I think in particular

to all contracts of service, support,

repair, maintenance, because once

we have delivered our boats

for our clients, well often

we are engaged in maintenance contracts

to support them, which is better

Naval Group can hold Naval Group's boats

to paraphrase

if you are well known.

But not always, not always.

And not always, especially in the international

or, of course, the clients

also seek a sovereignty,

a capacity to be able to do

autonomously the maintenance and operation of their ships.

So, the few emblematic programs,

of course, in the field of nuclear submarines,

two emblematic programs,

Barracuda,

which is the

replacement of the submarine fleet

of French nuclear attack,

class Rubi, so with a new class,

the class Sufran,

which is a problem

that we have been dealing with for a certain time already

and whose deliveries will go

on the whole 2020 decade.

So here we can already point out that the Sufran

has been delivered, and that the second one,

the G3-1, is not very far.

And the G3-1 has been delivered, and is not very far

from what we call its service service.

So already two.

So, to replace the submarines

of class Rubi,

which will

operate dismantling,

by the way, Naval Group has been going

since the development until the realization,

I am talking about the realization of the nuclear submarines

until dismantling, since we dismantled

on our side of Cherbourg the nuclear submarines

of the previous generations,

which are joined by the Sena.

Which is, so to speak, not generalized.

And not generalized.

In other words, it's not everyone

who does it. And there are some nations

that we will easily find

who leave the old equipment

without knowing too much how to do it.

It's a skill, dismantling it.

Ah yes, and we will dismantle

the quasi-totality of our nuclear submarines.

So, the first barracuda

which is an extremely ambitious one.

So we have six boats delivered.

You talked about the Sufran of the G3-1.

The Tourville is on what we call

its missile device. So it is

in a few weeks

now from the start of its nuclear heat

and its preparation

for the salamanders that will take place next year.

And then comes behind,

the Degrasse and

the Rubi and the Casabiancar

which will be the last two submarines of the series

delivered before the end of the decade.

So, if I talk about the nuclear submarine

that I just talked about,

I can say a word since you talked about

the emblematic problem of what was the repair of the Pearl.

June 12, 2020,

the Pearl suffered a terrible fire

and we have been measuring this year

to relive the Marine

a repaired Pearl

with an absolutely incredible repair

which consisted in taking just

half of the Sufran submarine

which had already arrived in Sherbourg

for its dismantling.

And when the Pearl was returned to Sherbourg

the part before it had been cut

we put it the part before the sapphire

the boat was left to Toulon

where the staff

are still waiting to make an exceptional work

It's interesting,

in general,

it's an exceptional performance,

I think the National Marine is extremely satisfied

with the result,

does it open tracks or not?

Or is it something that is measured

once for an unpredictable disaster

for which you did not stop

or does it give ideas?

So,

we are not yet

to exploit ideas that could come

but

I'll say two things.

First, we must never forget

that the submarines are built by Tronson

and that the job of a

industrial submarine director

like Naval Group is to be able to

conceive and then realize

to weld and assemble.

When we said, we're going to cut it

and we're going to glue it again,

it wasn't either a new operation

for the company.

The second thing is that

we were able to do that

in our workshops

and in our study offices,

engineers, technicians, workers

who had worked on this.

The continuity of the construction

of the buildings,

the construction of the buildings,

20-30 years ago.

It opens the perspective,

in any case, it puts on the table

that the consistency

in the industrial activity

is absolutely necessary

to be able to do that,

because what we did on the pearl

we did it following a major

accidental fire.

We could have done a repair

of this nature following a tribute

in combat, etc.

In any case, it shows to everyone

that the consistency in the effort

and the fact of following it, which is the case

of France and especially on the submarine roadmap

allows to do things like that.

Yes, it can indeed be said

for example, the Baracuda submarines

in the 30s of life,

why not, at some point or another

add a trench for additional functions.

If I remember correctly,

our architects are able to calculate the impact

and our workers, our technicians

and our engineers are able to do

such an operation.

It's interesting to talk about this consistency

because a second major project of the Naval Group

which I imagine we will necessarily talk about

is the new generation aircraft carrier

still not named for the moment.

But it's interesting

because it's obviously the Naval Group

of Charles de Gaulle at the time

and so

in what measure

is there a continuity?

After all, it's

30 or 40 years in the beginning

so

there are still several generations

of engineers and workers, etc.

And in what measure is there a continuity?

In what measure are we talking about

a travel table?

If you allow me, before talking about the carrier

which obviously will come quite quickly

just finished on the submarines

since we have now launched the development

of the nuclear submarine

of the third generation.

The first generation is the renewable class

in the 70s.

That's your father.

The second generation is the triumphant

That's you.

And so the third one, I am a little bit

with the thousands.

No, but you don't think so well

because

this third generation

has been working since

I will not say decades but not far

anyway more than 10 years.

We are in the development

so the realization

we start the realization of the first nuclear heaters

on our site of Nantes-Drette

we will start at the end of the year

in the next year

the first elements of COC

of a first boat that will be in service

at the horizon

half of the next decade, we will say 2035

to fix the ideas

there will be a boat every 5 years

and so the last one will come out of Sherbourg in 2050

so

these are boats whose life span

is estimated between 35 and 40 years

so we can imagine that these are boats

so obviously all this is very

political on the choices made by France

on its dissuasion system

but we can imagine that these are boats that will

sail to 2090

so we place dozens of years behind

and I believe that this is the strength

of a company like ours

of this permanent support that the state has had

to build this industrial hub

and this capacity to do so

under the nuclear nuclear attack

under the nuclear submarine of the 3rd generation

here are two extremely emblematic programs for France

which occupy a lot

the collaborators of Naval Group

you have mentioned the nuclear carrier

so obviously it is part of

let's say big objects

small programs that mark

and

Naval Group having realized

and especially Charles de Gaulle who is now in service

and Charles de Gaulle who is also a nuclear carrier

the previous carriers were not

nuclear propulsion

in this continuity

nuclear propulsion

is an extremely important element

we see the object, so it will be a very big boat

75,000 tons

but there will be two nuclear heaters of new generation

and this consistency

in the competence, this consistency in the investment

and everything particularly

necessary in the nuclear

because these are very particular technologies

and these are areas

on which it is extremely important

to renew generations

and it is true that

the previous heaters

who equip

current boats

Charles de Gaulle then the submarine

Barracuda then the submarine

3rd generation who are from this generation

are a model, a base

with engineers

technicians, workers who have made them

and it is absolutely

essential that these skills

apply to a new brand

which is the new generation carrier

I want to say because in fact there are technologies

I think it is something known

for Charles de Gaulle on everything that is catapult

because it is catapult systems

steam steam

and in fact we know

there are not many competent people

on catapult steam steam

there are very few specialists in the world

absolutely kept

people who had to be absolutely preserved

but it was necessary

it is a niche that had to be

preserved

there, it is found that for catapults

we change since it will be

electromagnetic propulsion on an American technology

but it is applicable for other things

that is to say the fact that there are know-how

that you have to think

that you have to think about the transmission

at the level of the duration of the building

and that when there is something

then it can become very very annoying

very very quickly because if the catapult

in this case it can be too many things

we no longer have the specialist who is doing well

the planes are still much less good

but you are perfectly right

and this is the subject

of skills and transmission of skills

it is in fact at the heart

of the naval group strategy

we will see a lot of the strategy

by its production strategy and I will soon

talk about other boats than nuclear boats

we see a lot of the

strategy by technological developments

technological breakthroughs etc

naval group is an enterprise that must also have

its strategy through skills

key skills, critical skills

the jobs, in particular

the jobs in tension, those on which

we have trouble to recruit

and it is true that

what are these jobs in tension

we have some in the

industrial manufacturers

we have talked a lot about

welders, mechanics

engineers, welders etc

which are jobs in which finally

with what has happened in the industry

in France, that I regret infinitely

we have somewhere to dry

training centers and even to dry

a will to work in these areas

because

previously it is manual jobs

but extremely qualified

extremely well paid too

when skills are not

I mean it is really

elite skills

extremely qualified jobs you said

extremely valuable

these are essential jobs

in the implementation of our objects

and these are jobs in which we progress

and in which the professional development

is extremely important

and these are jobs in which

in fact

we lack

to reserve capacity

to attract our young people

because the industry

was still victim

in these last years

I'm going back a little

in the past but victim

of a rather negative communication

talking about the industry

I can say that when I was

at the College of Ulysses it was a van

I mean it was presented as a job

extremely little qualified

extremely little valued

when we see what welders do

how well they earn, how well they are valued

the positions it can be in the industry

it's quite interesting to see

and today

there are other jobs in the industry

I think of electricians for example

in our field today

we are missing electricians

and for a rather

particular reason

the world is electrifying

and to electrify the world

there needs to be an electrician

and today there are not enough electricians

in our training centers to electrify the world

it's as stupid as that

and I hope by the way

that we will convince a large number of our young people

to go to work in these fields

because we need them

today and tomorrow

in the field of

a little more technical, a little more engineer

of course everything around

digital, informatics

digital, cyber security

are today's attention media

we, companies like others

need extremely important

so the identification of attention media

the fact of working very hard

the whole environment of training

training centers

the IMM

the national education

to be able to work in our fields

the IMM is the professional union

of metallurgies

absolutely, the industrial branch

in which we are

and which is extremely active in the training

professional training, initial training

but to be able to orient

I just give an example

in the field of nuclear welding

our local partners

and two other companies

that are EDF and Orano

decided to make a common training center

for nuclear welding

in the region, next to Sherbourg

in the region of Contenta

that means you don't have time

to recruit on the trade market

you have to train yourself

absolutely, we are led to create ourselves

to orient, to look for

we have developed a lot the learning in recent years

and the links to the training centers

because it's true

Naval Group

even if we are not only

in the example of our site

next to Angoulême

Ruel

which is a little further from the sea

but whether it is Sherbourg

Brest, Orient, the Nantais

or the Toulonais

wider than that

since we are going to Sint-Tropez

are training centers

in which we need to be attractive

we need to exist

to be visible and to encourage young people

because if we want to make boats

until 2050, in service until 2019

the young people that we recruit

today will be largely retired

when the boats are there

it's true that it's not easy

to say, I imagine

that it's the most general method

in the concept of armament

but to work on boats

that we don't necessarily see

we put water

if I can continue

we talked about submarines

we talked about the port of Avion

so the area of the surface buildings

which is also extremely active

we have put water

since we are talking about these moments

the first frigate for Greece

last week in the east

we are going to put water

in a dozen days

less than that

now the first boat for the Netherlands

in the area of the mine war

the surface that is supported

with frigates, corvettes,

mine war buildings

and then in partnership

with the Atlantic Champs

big effort to renew

so the problem is called FDI

defense and intervention frigates

new generation of frigates

so it's a beautiful boat

there is a big aeronautical industrial

that said

Marcel Dassault

to name it

a good plane was first a beautiful plane

I am proud

with all the collaborators of the Naval Group

to say that a good boat

is first a good boat, I think our boats are beautiful

and in any case our frigate

the last frigate has an absolutely incredible allure

but behind this allure

it also expresses

the mission

of such a boat, a combatant boat

capable of anti-submarine missions

indeed they are very beautiful

for those who want to see it

the first one has already been released

for France because it is co-produced

for France and for France

so this is what the Naval Group does

just a question, what do you do

since you have been

as an army engineer

you have put your hands in all this

what does the PDG do?

what does the PDG do?

so precisely, let's go to the end

here are some examples, but we also do submarines for Brazil

we do submarines in one

transfer technology

and we have projects in the Middle East

we also have projects

in Asia, Singapore etc

so an international activity

we will talk again about the export valve

because it is obviously very important

but what does the PDG do?

the PDG spends a lot of time with its customers

so obviously there is a French customer

he is not very far

but we have had a lot of work with

the French customer in the preparation

of military programming

and then it is 60%, 70% of our activity

is our great customer

even though the service of support of the fleet

is our great customer, the national marine user

the president of the Naval Group

spends a lot of time with them

to take care of the present

obviously

I can tell you, we talked about the Pearl

it is a subject that has occupied me a lot

in its time

to prepare the future

to make sure that the Naval Group

is perceived at the level

it should be in the device

and also to listen to its customers

of the national marine, etc

that is for France

but the PDG of Naval Group spends a lot of time

internationally too

so it is further

but our international customers

are states, marines

of first rank

also need to deliver

need to understand the needs of the future

and then need to win projects

because our industrial activity

is a complement

of this activity for France

and this activity for the international

that is what allows us

to carry our naval fields

our structure

to make sure that we are competitive

and for one and for the other

we need a volume of activity

which is the complement of the two

Do you miss the engineer's job?

Yes, listen

I think we are

I talked a lot about the internal vision

after I spend a lot of time

in the company

all the topics

related to the company's function

to its trajectory, obviously to its budget

its administration advice

Yes, but it is a bit different

at the time you were designing the navigation system

I will come, I will come

but ask me what I do

so I also try to trace the life

it is also a lot in the company

its administration advice, the administrators

with which I spend time

and then every time I can

engineer every day, engineer every day

I think when you are passionate about a field

where it is expressed

it is the field

as soon as I can, I go

I go where it happens

go see

the Coq workshops

of the Orient, of Sherbourg

spend some time

in our workshops, spend some time

in our design forms, spend some time with people

and spend some time with engineers

the navigation field remains

and the engineers of the Navagrupa

who take care of the knowledge

I think when we are engineers, we are always engineers

so we are passionate

I love working with my engineers

on future projects

obviously, I spend time

to understand what we do

and then also orientate

a certain amount of work on the new generation

on the nuclear submarine

of the third generation

this is a bit the family tavism

that you have

and then the choice I made

I think when we make a choice

young people, it still marks us

the fact of having chosen to work on a submarine

makes

everything

spend time with the engineers

who work on the USN and the 3G

is an absolutely exciting hour for me

and then I am

incredibly admirable

of everything they do

the Navagrupa collaborators

admirable

of a worker in the Coq workshop

and admirable of an engineer

who works on extremely evolved algorithms

you know my navigation

because it can still evolve since

So, you talk about submarines

you also talk about the export

you may have to come back to one of the episodes

to talk about which the general public

has heard about the Naval Group

these last few years, it is obviously

the Australian submarines

an offer brought in

in 2016

then an agreement signed in 2019

for the construction of 12 submarines

not nuclear, it is important to attack

for 31 billion euros

the contract of the century

annulled in September 2021

in the framework of the Cooccus

which allowed Australia to acquire nuclear submarines

but what is interesting

it is obviously an affair

it was obviously a tough blow

for the Naval Group

i.e. between the time

when the deal was signed

and its annullation

so how did you

experience it, how did you even learn it

how did it hit you

how did it happen to you

and what did you understand

I will answer directly to your question

and then if you allow me to come back to the story

I had taken in my office

the 15th of September 2021 at 3.30pm

and so

with some colleagues

around me

we were very few

and so in a phone call

with the Secretary of State

of the Australian Defence

and in fact they were in a sequence

the Prime Minister called

the President of the Republic

the Minister of Defence called

the Minister of Defence and it was in a sequence of announcements

telling us

especially you do not say anything before tonight

because everything will be announced tonight

by President Biden

a wonderful meeting at the CUS

so that's how I learned it

and that's really how I learned it

it's really at that moment

I often say that I'm always in a post-traumatic stress

at that moment, I think it's true

such a shock

that we can get ready for everything

but it prevents the game from happening

and

so you say that I arrived

it's true that when I arrived in March 2020

I didn't arrive at the moment of Covid

it wasn't an easy time

I arrived at Thales and then you arrived

in March 2020

and in Thales, thank you

when I was in Thales

actually I was directing

among others the naval activities

of Thales, including the submarine

sonar

and this Australian project

I had lived it since the beginning

next to the DCNS and the naval group

I even participated

as Thales at the visit of the Dutch President

in Australia

which was a bit of a precursor

of the will

of the naval group

and of this campaign

and I arrived at the naval group

with really the desire

to make sure that this program

it was a program

absolutely colossal

by its volume

by its dimension

by the commitment of the company

that it was going to bring

I often said at the time

to come to an Australian Franco-Australian company

it's a program that was actually

in the physical sense

of the term

which was the naval group

that approached it

and that also approached France

in a pacific water environment

but beyond that

even given the object

in a very special relationship

with the Five Eyes

because France would have entered

Five Eyes are these British-English countries

that have a big share

of information

a big strategic partnership

which was then forced by Ocus for some

absolutely

so an absolutely emblematic program

I arrive at the moment of Covid

and in a complicated phase of this program

because we were in engineering work

in preparation work of the naval field

in power work there

and we can no longer go to Australia

from March 2020

we can no longer go to Australia

with a remote program

it was absolutely necessary that I arrive

it was difficult this period of Covid

and we held our balloons

that was incredible because we managed

to put our teams in tele-work

in these extreme confinement phases

to continue to work remotely

somewhere the fact that the program

was between France and Australia

he had already gotten used to working remotely

and then I took a reflection

at that time that we were always looking at my phone

when I get up

but it's not very far

and always look at it because there was always

a message coming from Australia in the morning

always always always always

often messages from customers

so it was this period

and then I finished going

I had to go

I had to arrive at the client

at a time a little complicated

negotiations on technology transfers

and percentages

and I had no other way to go

than to respect the rules of confinement

a lot of our compatriots did it

it's still an amazing experience

and we work a lot

we take care of ourselves as much as we can

but it's a little stressful

I did it and I stayed 10 days

so in fact talking about what a PDG does

he also does that

he has to go there and he will spend 2 weeks in confinement

and I will spend

the month of February 2022 in Australia

and the program was on the rails

that's what's absolutely amazing

is that it was all this period

so from the moment it's confinement

we show to Australians

that we know how to do it

we know how to do the boat

we know how to transfer technology

we know how to associate a supply chain

so that Australia

assures what she wanted behind this program

which was really an industrial sovereignty

and realisation

she wanted an exceptional boat

an extraordinarily performing boat

she wanted to be able to do it

a big part of it, 60% should be made in Australia

which is still extremely important

and we get there

and the 15th, that's what's amazing

is that on the 15th of September

in the morning

the last document we had to receive

to move on to the next phase

because it's a contract that was separated in phases

and it's true that at each phase

contractually they had the right

to reconsider

but on the 15th of September in the morning

we receive all the documents

in the first phase

and all the signs are open to move on to the second

we have a valid client plan

we have a price and a valid client budget

we have all the technical documents

which show that the boat is sealed

as we say in the submarine area

that we are ready

we have shown that we had the power of engineering

there are more than 1000 people working on the program

so 300 on the 15th of September in the morning

and we receive this document

we look at our phones at 8 o'clock

at 9 o'clock in the morning

because it was really the

and by the way my program director

went to Australia

that is to say that there was always

confinement on the 15th

and so Monday he goes to Australia

to sign the contract

and Wednesday when we have this

announcement he is in his hotel room

he will spend 15 days in his hotel room

to show you

how in the programmatic vision

finally

the political vision was more complicated

and we had seen

Mr. Morrison and his environment

basculated, China was no longer the same

the relationship between Australia and China

was no longer that of 2016

and we saw well in Mr. Morrison's

speech and the way

he envisaged these alliances

an extremely strong approach from the United States

so the political vision

we could envisage it

but the programmatic vision

of all the Ministry of Defense

Australia is like

here we are discussing together

and all of a sudden

we learn that France will buy

submarines in the United States

imagine a little the shock

including for the Australians themselves

and this is a little the force

of the Five Eyes

that you mentioned earlier

it is their ability to exchange

in a field of absolute confidentiality

and I think the two bubbles were separate

and by the way I do not think that the political bubble

knew that on the 15th of September

it was allowed to negotiate a resolution

not for retirement

but for convenience

because everything was green

they decided to stop

hence the negotiation that we brought

who concluded

conditions that were recognized as relatively favorable

and what did you draw

like the sound

because there was

at the same time

there was a big press campaign

it was a public subject in Australia

there was

in Australia in any case

the press said a lot of bad things about this program

do you think that this is it

a large part

do you think that it is something more structured

no but in fact I will come back

what did you learn

about this?

on Australia itself

Australia is a country where the political regimes

often change

and it is true that they passed

2016 the years of Turnbull in Morrison

from a vision

of the sovereign defense system

to a vision of the defense system

under the American roulette

and so it is true that our program

has always been under a certain

contestation of this policy of sovereignty

I think that

the first message

is that we often see the international

through our own eyes and sovereignty

it speaks to us

and a state that decides to be sovereign

we know why it wants to be

we understand

Australia had decided to be sovereign

we understand

except that in fact

Australia has always been

the great American ally

America is always there

there is never a total sovereignty

and so the fact that

the political sovereignty of Basque

has always been a debate

and I think that a part of the press campaign

was linked to this political debate

on the choice of the defense system

what we learned

there are a thousand people who work on the program

on the 15th of September

Naval Group is an incredibly resilient

and thanks to its customers

and especially France

finally the SNLE 3rd generation program

which started at about the same time

allowed us to reposition

a very large number of our colleagues

collaborators and France

was really supported at that time

so resilient companies

I will admit that all the work

I have been doing

we encouraged mobility

we were very close

to our colleagues at Herbour-Joy

at Naval Group

in France there were about

650 people to fix a large number

directly related to the program

a very large number in Herbour

I imagined the state in which they were

on the 17th of the morning

this resilient company

a human resource task force

of 50 people

doing the link

we had mobility from Cherbourg

to other sites at never reaching levels

so we also

somehow

benefited from this

you managed not to see people

obviously in Australia the story is a little different

because here we can not reposition

but here it is the government that took care of them

and Australia is a country of full employment

and finally the quasi-totality of our collaborators

are repositioned

after that

finally we can give place to big changes

so here it is a lessons learned

that the world of the five eyes is a little bit

particular

and here it is difficult

and therefore difficult for a French company

to be part of

here I

the program was the occasion

in any case it shows the difficulty

but here after

after what we also removed

and it was said by the Australians

that

the boat that we were doing

was really exceptional

the Australians recognized it

they said they chose nuclear

but in terms of conventional

the design that we had shown them

was really the one that would

provide a force that they want

so I think that reputation

even if our competitors tried to play on it

it was recognized by our customers

and then we got it

it's interesting because

in fact it also raises a question

of the dependence

on the export of naval groups

you said it's still a third of the number of business

it's important

and so it depends on that

you have to convince new customers

you have to sell them permanently

and it makes me think of what you said

about the transfer of technology

because it's obviously something very crucial

and then it also makes a little connection

with what we said about

the French status of naval groups

of public companies

very competitive

very competitive

while keeping

let's hope the most sensitive

and the most efficient capacity for France

how do we consider both?

well first of all

the competitiveness

is a complex and broad subject

we have to be competitive

by its solution, by technological innovation

a client can try to

buy a naval group

because in terms of innovation

capacity is simply better than the other

and he will look at that

he will also look at the price

but he will also look at that

we have to be competitive in our fields

and in naval groups

as in other companies

but we always work on

the competitiveness of our processes

of our ways of doing

of our computer tools

to be able to improve

and also of our industrial organizations

to be able to make

two boats, two frigates per year

when you make two frigates per year

individually, it will be less expensive

than if you make one per year

and so these are the competitive elements

similar to our Sherbourg fleet

we invest a lot in industrial means

we invest in all our sites

which will allow us to be

more efficient in certain tasks

to do more dimensional things

and after that

our export sales are

organized, controlled

monitored but also accompanied by France

and therefore France

as such by its defense agreements

provides a guarantee

and security

but I think that if...

Yes, it's the question of what we give

because obviously why does naval group sell

because there are skills

and exceptional French know-how

and at the same time we can't sell everything

even if obviously naval group doesn't need

to sell significantly

but it's complicated as...

It's a whole thing

let's take the example, we were talking about Australia

so let's talk about this sequence

because it's interesting

from September 15th to October 2021

shortly after

the Australian announcement

Greece announces that it chooses France

on its frigates

and the announcement of the French

it's a lot of commentators

saying that it's been 10 years

since we were in a country in Greece

it was really my choice

Yes, they weren't allowed to consult the group

on the day of the announcement

No, it was for a long time

we had been proposing the frigate

and now we are proposing the frigate of defense and intervention

but Greece will choose France

Greece therefore in a particular political situation

the Mediterranean etc

so Greece chooses

an alliance with France

when we choose the same boat as France

it's not an Oda

We are already allies

interoperability, ability to work together etc

and then Greece chooses the FDI

and when we look at it

it expresses through its design

its strength and power

so it's an extremely complete boat

I can tell you

You like the appearance of the FDI

It's always an interesting question

I love our boats

the frigate was beautiful

the faillette was incredible

the submarines are beautiful

when you look at a naval submarine

it's crazy

but it's true that the FDI

has a small side of complementary design

which is the transverse

which makes a lot of talk

and which will also make a lot of talk

when we will have seen the sea

because it will also be a great boat

it's a sea boat, it's a sea boat

not to forget that there are more than 100 sailors

who live on board

it's funny, it's transverse

because it reminds a bit of the Athenian triers

transverse means

of the bridge

it's enough to see a ship

and when we look at the frigate

Kimon

we will offer to the minister

of the Greek defense

Kimon is an admiral

it must be the Athenian fleet

500 BC

and the ship of the admiral Kimon

next to the FDI

2500 years later

and

to make this parallel

it would be a bit anecdotal

it prevents Greece from choosing

a ship whose architecture is very digital

of the FDI

and I think in terms of innovation

everything is digital, the radars are not our plans

the electronic war, the IFF

we are based on an architecture

based on computer servers

we are cyber-secured

by design, by definition

and then with all the ability

to evolve the collaborative combat

they choose France

they choose innovation

after that

it's true that we have to be in prices

that are also market prices

hence the importance in our fields

of working on competitiveness

Greece is coming and if I go to the end of the sequence

it's the occasion

during our innovation days of 2021

in the end we saw that

we had a lot of our strategy

which stopped

Australia

it also gave us human abilities

in a major way

in a new field

which is the drones

and it's at that moment

that Naval Group identifies the field of drones

of autonomous systems as being

on the one hand an absolute necessity

to equip naval forces

and finally seeing what we are

because Naval Group

by all its activities, we have talked a lot about the fields

but we must always remember that Naval Group

is an integrator of combat systems

and a director

of these software

of combat systems and missions

I think it's one of the reasons

why our boats are so integrated

with this look because we do the combat system

ourselves and therefore we are able to

optimize naval architecture

with its combat system

obviously with great partners

Thales, MBDA, Safran

to name them

but there are many others

and so from 2021

in this strategy of rebounds

it's always accessible

and on the contrary, we have to put the watts

and then the development of the drones

and I would say a few months before

or a year before

that it becomes an evidence for everyone

with what is happening

especially during the war in Ukraine

It's very interesting the Naval Group

we can't talk about it now because it's really

even because it's

I mean it took a long time

obviously compared to the drones

it's not the same weather

it's really different, it's not the same elongations

we don't have the time to talk about it

but maybe just talk about the LPM

because you mentioned it earlier

and the LPM for Naval Group

and

by the way

this is the first question you asked

in the LPM because obviously

there is a need for you and your

your predictions to determine this volume

but really

as far as it is collaborative

as far as you take

the command of the state

for example if the state

wanted to make two or three

new generation aircraft

if the light

was to arrive on the army

to decide to

change dimensions

could the Naval Group be able to answer yes

could you say

you have to wait

it's not that simple

where do you intervene in this LPM

the LPM there are a lot of changes

I intervene as a PDG Naval Group

with Naval Group but also with

my cascade of the Naval Industry

and Construction Group

and the Defense Industry Council

through the DGA

and through the support of the FLOT

for what concerns us but we will say a lot of the DGA

I intervene

to model

the different programmatic scenarios

that constitute the budgetary trajectory

and therefore

during these phases of construction

we have to imagine

that there are a lot of scenarios

they need us to have

the industrial impact of a scenario

both in the cost of the programs

in their elongation

so you are constantly consulting

on the numbers?

at some point

we talked a lot about the aircraft carrier

during the military LPM

how?

yes it's a lot of money

it's a lot of money to place

in a budgetary trajectory

the military LPM itself

it's a lot of money, 413 billion

it's an extremely important volume

the defense budgets are increasing

and we understand why

but these are scenarios

at the end of arbitration

and then an announcement

but what I can say about the military LPM

is that somewhere it engages us

the defense industry

the LPM and the army

during this period

called the war economy

but the war economy was

there too, in the LPM's case

to bring on the table

subjects such as

the

sovereignty issues

on certain elements

are we able to do what we have to do

so we brought on the subjects

we had

or we were dependent on

outside of France

the war economy brought us

the vision of our supply chain

finally we did

the stress tests of the supply chain

and if we had to multiply by 2 or 3

by the way, we did the stress test

because today

our eastern battlefield is set

to do 2 frigates a year

since we deliver

corvettes to the UAE

we deliver frigates to France and Greece

and so somewhere

this war economy field

we show it and it shows

the tensions that can be seen in the supply chain

and the investments on which the state

can help us

the vision of the PME

war economy and so in the LPM's case

we brought on simplifications

the door is open

how can we simplify our processes

how can we do it anymore

it's true that the field of drones

is a field that is close to simplification

we will not develop a drone as we develop a nuclear submarine

we will not put a drone in the water

as we put a boat with a crew of 100 people

but today if we look at the regulations

they are not mature

so what are the simplifications that we can bring

and then

the competitiveness

research of all the levers that allow us to be

more efficient, more competitive

we are part of these war economy fields

to which we were associated

it was part of the preparation of the LPM

to precisely look at these tragedies

so Naval Group is able to respond

to a redimension

which has been

appearing since 18 months

in the case of the LPM

if you have to produce more, you will arrive

and we are doing it

after the naval programs

we must always see if we are on the long term

and the naval programs

we are talking about the boat

but we must never forget that

behind the boat there is a crew

and so there are issues of human resources

and the boat goes into a port

and in a port there are infrastructures

so in fact we are in a system logic

and the dimension of a fleet

is not only the dimension of the naval field

which allows them, it is true that on the other hand

the French fleet is in great renewal

at the moment, I talked about nuclear submarines

I talked about frigates

of defense and intervention

which will complete the frigates

Fremes, which we delivered the last

few years ago

I was going to say a few months, yes it must be the last year

the Lorraine frigate

there are the fleet building

and also the fleet

so there is also the Jacques Chevalier

which is about to be renewed

we will soon renew the Haute-Hurier patrouilleurs

who will gradually replace

the escort ships

we will renew the surveillance frigates

the Outremer frigates

to allow France

to better monitor and protect

these exclusive economic zones

we will renew

we have talked about the port

so there is still an extremely important renewal

of the French fleet at the moment

and then international fleet

so we have an industrial tool

and it is often a problem

that we also have the industrial charge

it is made of long-term visibility

I talked about long-term programs

and then short-term opportunities

and the area of the surface buildings

is never an area

on which we have a long-term visibility

it has always been a balance

between programs in France

and international programs

that we spend a lot of time

to convince international clients

to order us boats

because we also need it to charge our ships

Thank you very much Pierre-Éric Pommelais

With pleasure

So I remember

we will have the opportunity to talk about Naval Group

and all its perspectives in the airfield

So the airfield

a podcast produced by Alexandre Jublain

distributed by Binge Audio

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I'm Molly Wood

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