CBC CBC 3/27/23 - Episode Page - 43m - PDF Transcript

So you meet a woman online.

I love it. I just love it.

But it turns out, thousands of other people are in love with her too.

Janessa Brazil.

Janessa Brazil.

Janessa Brazil.

One woman's image is being used by criminals to target innocent people looking for love online.

You win their hearts, you win their wallet.

Love, Janessa.

My wild quest to find her.

The human face of a digital con.

Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

Align's Gate Sound and CBC Podcast production.

Okay, so the pictures are all in here. They're just pictures.

But here's the National Inquirer thing right here on the cover.

You didn't know I made the National Inquirer?


I had no idea that Carrie Winter had made the cover of the National Inquirer.

The cousin did it.

With a blaring headline, the cousin did it.


I'm in Carrie's Toronto apartment on a sunny fall day.

He's right flanked through a drawer in his living room where he has news clippings and magazines about the murder of his cousin Barry Sherman.

And so, oops, the news saw all the photos. I got lots of photos if you wanted to see them.

All this media attention, the sensational headlines and gossip magazines and the long write-ups in more reputable ones,

all came after Carrie went on national TV and told Canadians that not only did he have fantasies about killing his billionaire cousin Barry,

but that Barry had once asked him to hire someone to kill honey.

Oh, I come across as a cuckoo.

And I think somebody else out there with maybe less fortitude or strength would have jumped off a friggin bridge.

After his interview on CBC television's The Fifth Estate, Carrie became a well-recognized figure in Toronto, especially the Jewish community.

And what he said on TV just fueled the intense speculation around the Sherman's death, adding Carrie to the ever-growing list of suspects.

I used to go to restaurants. I'd go places people would stare at me. I was being laughed at. I was reading comments when it went on YouTube.

I was seeing what people were saying about me. It was crippling.

I remember when it aired on the CBC, I'm sitting with my two young children and it starts off pretty good and how it ends.

And my daughter and son are sitting there and they're making me out to look like a cuckoo.

The Fifth Estate episode aired in 2018, more than four years before this interview.

Oh, we're running this already?

The lawsuit that Carrie and his brothers launched against their cousin Barry, also years in the past.

But Carrie's humiliation, anger and deep sadness feels like it's still right on the surface.

You gotta remember, we're talking about 17 years. I'm looking up to this man, loving him like a father.

He's treating me like his adopted son. He's my surrogate dad. And it was the first time I ever raised my voice to him.

And I told him he's a fucking liar. And he says, I know you're upset with me, but I can explain.

I said, no, you can't. You've been lying to me. And it was then that I swore that I would get even with him.

Before he lost the lawsuit against Barry, Carrie had tried to court the media to tell his side of the story, but he had very little luck.

That was until Barry and Honey showed up dead, and the media began hounding Carrie for an interview.

So, you gotta remember, it was only a couple of weeks after the bodies were found. The theory was still murder, suicide.

It's pretty important to keep the timing in mind. When Carrie sat down for his first big interview with the Fifth Estate, the police still saw this case as a husband killing his wife and then killing himself.

So, I turned and I said, look it. The only regret I fucking have is that I didn't kill this piece of shit. What do you mean?

And I started to talk about my anger and my fantasies, and I said, look it, I had fantasies. I was gonna cap a team rule as fucking head down like a bowling ball in the Apatix parking lot.

That's what Carrie told the CBC five years ago, and talking to him now, I can tell you that he still sounds just as angry, just as volatile as he did back then.

His energy is so intense. Our conversation is the kind that wears you out for the rest of the day.

Carrie fluctuates between his intense anger and deep grief. His trauma goes beyond railing against his dead cousin.

This is a man who lost his parents at four years old and never seemed to have found his footing, often struggling with drug addictions and an overwhelming need to be loved.

And wrapped up in all of this is Carrie's complicated relationship with Barry, a man who supported him almost like a father would financially, emotionally and on his road to sobriety.

And when Carrie did get sober, Barry was at his side to celebrate.

I got my one year and who was there? Barry. My cousin Barry came, and it's strange I get emotional even after all this time talking about things. It's strange.

But I remember it because I was so proud of myself, and I was so happy that my cousin came.

And Barry asked him if he could say a few words after my friend gave me my one year medallion.

And Barry stood up and he said such beautiful things about me. And then he was so proud of me.

And at that moment I really loved him. That's something that all the listeners need to know.

That I loved my cousin. He broke my heart later.

Welcome to the no good, terribly kind, wonderful lives and tragic deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman.

I'm Kathleen Goltar and this is Chapter 7. My Blood is Yours.

They were kids. They were orphans.

For 10 years, Barry, Sherman and Carrie Winter battled each other through their lawyers.

In deposition after deposition, Barry spoke about his early relationship with the four winter boys.

I felt terribly about it and I was eager to help in any way I could. After my aunt and uncle died, every time I was in Toronto, I'd go visit the kids and try to give them some continuity.

Lou Winter's unexpected death in 1965 at the age of 41 and his wife's demise from leukemia just a few weeks later would set off a chain of events that are still playing out today.

I was born into, I would have to say, a wealthy family. We lived in a mansion on the Kingsway Overlook in the Humber River.

My mother was 10 years younger. She was 31 and she was dying of leukemia.

And in three years, she had three children, my older brother, Jeff, me and my younger brother, Dana.

And within a year and a half, two years after Dana was born, that's when she got the cancer that leukemia died.

She was at St. Joseph's Hospital in her deathbed when 17 days before she passed on November 22nd on November 5th, my father died and he was 41.

The fourth brother, the eldest, Tim, had been adopted by the winters before the younger three came along.

I often looked at my four children wondering if I had passed away suddenly when my children were each around four and a half, five.

What they remember things, but I think the son lost both my parents. I just kind of blacked it out.

They have very, very, very few memories of my natural parents.

A few days before she passed at St. Joseph's, she called in the lawyers and she added a codicell to her will.

Now you don't remember, she had just lost her husband now. She's got four kids. She never expected my father to go.

She's panicked. She's stressed. Oh my God, I'm going to pass away. Who's going to care for my kids?

But the one thing she didn't want were family members coming close to us or the money.

So she added a codicell to her will saying no family members could adopt me or my brothers.

And she would have preferred, I think it states there in the codicell in her will, that she wanted it to be a Jewish family, but it didn't have to be.

And if in time they couldn't place the four children, one family, adopt them all out to four different families.

That's how adamant she was about not having family members come close to us or the money.

Carrie says their mother didn't trust her family nor her husbands, believing that they were only interested in their money and not what was best for her young boys.

Without a family member to take the kids, Toronto's Jewish community rallied together to find the four young boys a home.

Some of the prominent schools in the Toronto area, the rabbis announced that there was these four children that needed a home.

And this particular rabbi, Rabbi Monson at the Beshalem synagogue, he had made several announcements and it caught the Barkin's attention.

And you know, in Jewish tradition, it's a mitzvah. It's a wonderful deed to look after children.

Martin and Carol Barkin were two prominent members of Toronto's Jewish community who had already adopted two children, a boy and a girl.

I remember always getting dressed up for Rosh Hashan and Yom Kippur and we'd all go down to Beshalem synagogue.

And I remember always eyes on us. No matter where we walked as a family, everybody would stare and I never understood that.

Well, it's because it was unusual for a father and mother who were unable to have children adopt six.

On paper, the Barkin's were what the Winters had wanted for their kids.

But when Kerry talks about his adopted family, he doesn't have any happy memories.

I had a speech problem. I was stuttering. I was really not social. I was really not okay.

And I remember the first year or two with the Barkin's was a very difficult time for me.

I just remember looking at these two people and knowing something's wrong.

Because where do these two people come from and who are these other two that we're living with?

Kerry says Barry and his mother, Sarah, would visit the boys early on from time to time.

Sarah asked Martin and Carol if she could come by and visit the children.

And graciously, Martin and Carol allowed that.

And I think the first time that Sarah came, she came with Barry and she came with Barry's younger sister, Sandra.

And I believe it was for Hunnicut. I remember Sarah very well because she had an eye patch.

But I also remember Barry coming to visit us and his blue Mustang. He'd be coming up from Boston.

Barry was a 23-year-old student at MIT in Boston when the children became orphans.

After my aunt and uncle died, every time I was in Toronto, I would go visit the kids.

He spoke about this time during a deposition with Kerry's lawyer. We got actor Saul Rubinak to read it.

When they were adopted, I used to go over to the Barkin's house. They were my cousins and I was glad to help them any way I could.

The boys would of course not have been aware, but it was during this time that Barry bought Empire Labs

with the help of his mother, Sarah, and business partner Joel Ulster.

And this would have been when the infamous clause was included in the agreement.

Kerry thinks that the option was Sarah's idea as a way to placate the trust.

And in Kerry's mind, this is when the lifelong conspiracy to keep the company out of the hands of Lou Winter's children began.

But all our visits to visit Martin and Carol Barkin, there's no mention of this option.

So, you know, this is the treachery. This is the deception. This is the manipulation.

This is the apple not falling too far from the tree that is cunning as Barry Sherman was. His mother was probably twice.

So, you know, all these things I find out much later on.

The deal closed in 1967. Not long after that, Barry's mother died.

And I also know that when Sarah suddenly passes away, I don't see Barry again.

And they sort of slowly closed the door and kind of run down the street and turned their backs on me and my brothers.

With Barry and the rest of his family gone, all Kerry and his brothers have are the Barkins.

You know, I saw a therapist very early on in my life. I must have been 15 or 16 when I first started in therapy.

I remember this psychiatrist and I'll never forget what he said. It stayed with me all these years.

He said, you went from the fire to the frying pan.

In other words, you know, your life had a terrible event where you lost your parents four and a half.

But not only did that tragedy happen, you fell into this snake pit with a very abusive father.

Martin Barkin was a very abusive father. He was a rageaholic.

Although he didn't drink and do drugs, he was a workaholic and he really excelled in the world of urology.

And he became a very successful surgeon, big house on Old Forest Hill Road, but behind closed doors with all his success.

And the look of this wonderful, blissful family, you know, loving parents and six beautiful children in a lovely home, it was hell.

There was nothing but abuse and yelling and shaming and hitting and just my whole childhood from 5 to 15, I lived in terror.

I lived in fear.

We did reach out to Carol Barkin to see if she'd comment on the allegations of abuse, but we haven't heard back.

And Martin Barkin died in 2018.

Carrie says he dealt with that trauma by acting out at an early age.

The anger certainly came out in my hockey. It came out in beating kids up at school. It came out in my antics in the locker room with girls.

I mean, I was abusing drugs before I was 13, 14. I was broken at 15. There is no doubt about it.

And I got in serious trouble with the law. I was shoplifting. I was abusing drugs. I was drinking.

His brothers didn't fare any better.

Jeffrey at 15 had a complete mental breakdown. He was hospitalized and they diagnosed him with a serious mental illness.

At Danath, the Barkin's found needles under his bed. I think it was 14 or 15. I mean, it was insanity what was going on.

Carrie moved out before his 16th birthday, but he was still getting into trouble doing things like selling drugs at his high school.

Got in trouble with the law, ended up incarcerated on a six-month drug conviction.

I only spent 20 odd days in jail. You know, even now talking about it, it's hard for me to think about my life with the Barkin's.

Because I'm a father. I've got four kids. So I put myself in a situation and I adopt a little boy who's just lost his parents so suddenly and so quickly, you know, within 17 days.

And I think about what would that little boy want more than anything? Well, he wouldn't want to be it. He'd want to be loved.

There were some successes in Carrie's life. After he left home, his uncle and his mother's side reconnected with him and arranged for Carrie to be sent to a private boarding school.

I was awarded the headmaster's cup. And at that point, I had turned my life around. I got into all different types of colleges and universities.

And at the age of about 18, I flew over to London, England for four years. I went to the American International College.

It was called Richmond College, a very posh, you know, a bit hoity-toity private school in London.

And great four years, amazing four years in my life where I met a wonderful girl, a Swedish girl who lived in Parasofi.

Carrie is a talker. I think I might have asked five questions during these four plus hours.

He's also very animated. He doesn't sit still and he uses his hands a lot.

Jeffrey has a way of talking and Jeffrey says, oh, you're not going to believe it.

He goes on tangents, but remarkably always remembers where he left off and finds his way back.

I was probably about 24 and a half, 25.

I started doing coke and I started hanging out with different people and parting became more of my life.

And I loved traveling. I went on school trips to Hong Kong. I went on a school trip to India, Amsterdam.

I'd been to Paris and Spain. I liked hopping on planes and I'd love taking trains.

I literally went around the world.

But I never knew at that time in my life that hopping on a plane at 25, that I wouldn't come back to Toronto for three years.

And those three years were eventful, dizzying.

I remember while we were in India, I was roaming in the hotel with a guy named Joe. Joe and I were really good friends.

And one night I wake up and he's so wasted. And I see him with some tin foil and this brown powder.

I said, what the hell are you doing, Joe? He goes, oh, it's chasing the dragon tail. That's heroin.

I said, give me that. So I, of course, did a blast or two. Whoa, that was it.

I sat back on the couch and I'm going to tell you something. Don't try a heroin.

I went to Thailand. They have very strong pure heroin that comes in from the Golden Triangle.

And I made a big mistake that day. And I ended up spending months and months and months in Thailand.

I got really addicted to heroin during these few months.

All of this was paid for by a trust fund left behind by his parents when they died.

I lived on a Visa card and I'd just get cash advances and American Express travelers checks.

If I wanted to stay in a five store hotel, I could. If I wanted to rent a car, I could.

Carrie eventually made his way back to Toronto. He was addicted to drugs, out of control and had no idea what his next move would be.

His brother, Dana, was also struggling. It's at this vulnerable time that Barry reemerges and walks back into the brother's lives.

He knows I'm wired on drugs and he's on this mission to help us.

When my cousins came along, they were in trouble. When they were in their 20s, I think I did everything I could for them.

This is Barry talking about that time during a deposition.

I spoke to them, talked to them, tried to get them, got them into treatment programs, talked to them about what it is that they want to do for a career and how I could help them.

Encourage them to get the training they needed. If they wanted to start businesses, to start those businesses, I financed them.

I didn't take any piece of the business. I lent them the money.

I sincerely believe that Barry's heart was in the right place. He definitely felt bad that he hadn't watched over us.

I remember him saying that, that he thought everything was okay. I thought you guys were loved and you were cared for, so he felt bad that he wasn't there checking up on us.

And I remember him saying to me, I want to help you. I want to help build your life. You're a loose son. You're a winter. My blood is yours.

And I'm here to help you. And I thought, well, this is wonderful. I got this rich cousin who's going to help me and I'm messed up.

And Barry definitely leaned in and helped.

Barry's line to me was always, I want to help make your dreams come true. You know, I want to help you make a life for yourself.

That was one of his favorite lines, by the way. And I want to help you make a life for yourself.

He used to say that a lot. He'd say, you know, I want you to make a life for yourself.

And he'd say things like, you're Lou Winter's son, as if great things should happen, of course, who my father was.

He did really, really admire my dad. Like, let's not underestimate who my father was to Barry.

And Barry really looked up to my dad and he really had this respect for my father.

Barry never said a bad word about my dad.

All we said he was the smartest man he ever met.

I did everything I could to help them, even to start their own businesses.

With Carrie here, I said to him and asked him, what does he want to do?

Carrie, you have to make something of yourself.

He said he wanted to do renovations. I said, fine, I'll finance a renovations business for you.

Get some training, buy a property, work on it.

So with Barry's money, Carrie bought his first fixer-upper.

I remember getting this little house and I remember going in and taking off the lattice and plaster and really not knowing much, you know.

Doing it. And after it was done, he said, why don't you move in?

I like, what? He said, move in. Move in with your wife and your kid.

They do. And the two cousins got very close.

I remember going in his office and I was one of the few people that could go through the security doors at Apatex,

say hello to Joanne, his secretary, and walk straight in.

He could be on the phone, it didn't matter. I could walk right in.

I think the only other person who could do that was probably Honey.

And I'd always go in, he'd be on the phone, he'd mesmerize me.

The way Barry would conduct business on the phone would impress anybody. He was the master.

And Barry seemed to get a lot out of Carrie too. He took pleasure in seeing him succeed and beat his drug habit.

What happens is for years, I'm admiring and respecting and treasured this wonderful relationship.

I called him my roly-poly teddy bear. He was my big bear. I used to call him. I'd visit him.

I felt so close to him. He was buying me things. He was wonderful.

Oh, you're always so happy. You're always giggly. You're always so lit, you know?

And Barry wasn't that sort of person. And he said to me once, he goes, I don't laugh very much.

And I said, oh, that's too bad, Barry. You got to laugh. Life's supposed to be fun.

He says, but you make me laugh.

It was Barry who suggested that Carrie change his adopted name, Barkin, back to winter.

Barry was the one that convinced me, you know, I'm an ounce of Barkin blood in you. I'm family. You're all winter.

To my cousins, I would have been happy to help them any way I could. I did try.

When they did come, when they were young adults, and they came to me for help,

I encouraged them in every way that I could with each of them.

Not only did Barry lend Carrie money to buy properties, but he set up a line of credit.

And he said, there's the money and use it the way you like. And of course, I wouldn't just use it to renovate.

I have expenses, buy a car, and we had a nanny, and life was just great.

How much did you think he'd given you over the years?

Oh, at this point, it was in the millions, for sure a million or two.

And he had given me a line of credit that had grown from 250 to almost like one point something million.

And, you know, I didn't think anything odd. His explanation was, well, I'm giving you all this money.

I'm co-signing all these lines of credit and helping you build all these houses, and you got nothing to worry about.

Carrie wasn't the only winter brother that Barry was trying to help.

Barry was also sending Dana, Carrie's older brother, to treatment programs.

Dana was the brother who got caught up in a murder investigation.

Remember, it was Barry who bailed him out.

But in the end, Barry's help couldn't save Dana.

He puts a dart in his arm and he overdoses on heroin.

And it was Barry that called me one night.

The phone rings. It's about two or three in the morning.

And I remember getting on the phone and Barry says, I have terrible news.

Your brother overdosed and died tonight.

Listening to Carrie tell his story, it feels like this moment when Dana dies is when things start to shift between the cousins.

Up to this point, Carrie believed that Barry just wanted the best for him to make his dreams come true.

And Barry had asked for nothing in return.

That was about to change.

I knew the right people. That's how he started it.

He said, you must know the right people.

I didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

I said, right people, you know, they're druggies, he says.

So guys you hang out with on the street, you could find somebody.

Find somebody. I said, Barry, you do what?

He said, I want you to knock off my wife. You kill her.

I said, you're joking. I laughed.

I swear to God, I started giggling. Maybe it was a nervous.

I can't remember, but I know one thing.

He was dead serious.

And I said, Barry, you're actually sitting here asking me to kill your wife.

He goes, yeah, I am.

And what do you say to that?

I said, I don't know what to say.

He goes, well, I want you to look into it.

You understand me?

And I said, you're serious.

He goes, I am 100% serious.

I want you to kill her.

I want you to get rid of her.

So we were at the cottage in Bob Cajun years ago and Carrie on the weekend with my kids

and he came up to me and he said, you can't believe Barry asked me to get his wife murdered.

This is Peter Weninger.

We met through mutual friends and he was just starting off in the construction business.

So I helped him on his first house.

He and Carrie have been friends for 30 years.

I was shocked.

I thought he was joking, but he, you know, I said, wow, wow.

And he was, you know, he was shaking up.

He didn't really say what he was going to do about it.

But I mean, I was a witness to it.

So I believed it was true.

Just the way he spoke and said it was, you know, he said he felt obligated to Barry and stuff.

And I said, you can't, you know, it's a crazy story.

I mean, you got to phone the police and tell them.

Peter says while he was shocked, he wasn't surprised by the fact that Barry would choose Carrie to do something like this.

I mean, this, you know, they had a good relationship for years and years and years and Carrie started building and they're a really good relationship.

And then, you know, I guess he trusted him.

I do tend to believe Carrie when investigating any incident that only two people were present for.

You go looking for other people they told someone who can back up their claims.

Peter does that here.

And he also told the police.

But if the police took any action, Peter never heard about it.

I don't think he was lying about it.

I think it was true.

Just the way he was acting and, you know, his, you know, his demeanor, you know, yeah.

I mean, I've heard stories for years and years with him and Barry.

What I'm not sure about is whether or not Barry might have been joking.

Even if he was mad at honey, isn't it possible that he was making a joke, albeit a bad one?

Is it a possibility that Barry was sort of tongue in cheek, you know, kind of joking, you know?

I like to kill that cow.

I want you to do it.

You know, this sort of thing, except the way he spoke to me that day, the way he closed that door,

it was his demeanor.

It was the way he spoke to me.

He had never, ever talked to me the way he talked to me that day in his office.

It was stone cold.

It was direct.

There was no bullshit.

There was no laughing tongue in cheek giggle.

It was serious.

I want her fucking killed, he said.

If it was a serious request, it does make you wonder why Barry would ask Carrie rather than someone else.

Did Barry think he knew Carrie well enough to know that it would be almost impossible for Carrie to say no?

Well, there's no doubt he had me in a pickle.

I mean, the predicament I found myself in is you have this billionaire cousin who's basically giving me everything.

I mean, people need to hear the everything isn't just paying bills.

It's buying me cars, buying me cottages, nannies, houses, trips.

We're talking millions of dollars.

We're talking giving me this lifestyle you could only dream of.

And he's never asked me for anything.

Not only did Barry fully fund Carrie's life, but Barry stood in as a father figure.

Carrie was a man who spent his life chasing the unconditional love he lost when his parents died.

Barry would have known that.

And Carrie did travel in circles where it's possible he knew a hit man or two.

And now he's got this guy sitting in front of him who's a little bit wobbly.

Clearly, Barry saw needle marks on my arms.

He knew I was wired.

He knew I was smoking crack again.

He knew I wasn't clean.

And he knew my marriage wasn't good.

He knew I was messed up.

And did he pray upon me?

Did he know I was an easy mark?

Did he know that I'd find it extremely difficult to say go fuck yourself?

I ain't even going to entertain the notion, absolutely.

If Barry was, in fact, serious, I'm wondering if Carrie might have understood why he wanted Honey dead.

According to Carrie and others that we've talked to, there wasn't a lot of love lost between Honey and Barry.

The Sherman kids told the police that their parents had had an antagonistic relationship.

Sometimes punctuated by screaming matches.

He turned to me one day and he was going on and on about Honey.

And I know that he was miserable.

I used to often say to Barry, why you divorce her?

She's such a fucking cow.

I mean, the way you talk about her and the way she talks to you and I was privy to it.

There were occasions on a Friday, Honey would come in Barry's office and I'd be sitting there and I'd hear her.

I'd hear her talking to him and I couldn't believe my ears how she would talk to him.

Oh, the one that stands out is her coming in on a Friday and making fun of him.

And how she'd do it, she'd say things like, go ahead, Carrie, ask your cousin what he's doing this weekend.

Barry, do you know what you're doing this weekend?

He has no idea.

Why doesn't he have an idea?

Because I'm his social director.

I arrange all social activities.

Don't I, Barry?

What are you going to wear tonight, Barry?

Do you know what you're going to wear?

Ask him if he knows what he's going to wear today.

I say, honey, please, and she'd leave after she'd ridicule him.

And I say, Barry, what the fuck?

Why do you let her talk like that?

And it was during one of these little powwows in his office, he called her mean spirit.

It was the first and only time that he ever said that to me.

He said, you know, Carrie, she's mean-spirited.

I said, what do you mean?

And he called her mean-spirited in the context of the children.

He didn't say she was mean to me.

He said she's mean-spirited with the kids.

Whether Barry was serious or not, Carrie took it to heart.

And he did know someone.

So I set it up.

I remember getting a phone call that he had arranged her demise.

And he said that she was going to go missing.

And thank God it never happened.

And it didn't happen because Barry changed his mind.

That's the truth.

Carrie says he and Barry never talked about it again.

And soon the two men would not be talking at all.

I'll never forget that night because I sat on the couch in the front living room

and I start flipping through this purchase agreement.

And it's an agreement between Barry and Joel Ulster in the Roll Trust.

It was Carrie's brother, Jeffrey, who began looking into the deal that Barry made when he bought Empire Labs.

And in depositions, Barry said that he wanted to help the boys get the information they were after,

even though his lawyers advised him otherwise.

He told me that I shouldn't provide the documents.

And I said, no, no, I want to. They're my cousins.

And if I can help them, I'll help them get the documents.

It took some time.

I'm not a lawyer, but sure enough, I get to a page where it talks about an option to the orphaned children.

And I am just floored.

I cannot put into words even this moment speaking to you that there's shock.

I can't even, I can't describe what I felt even.

I just remember the wind being knocked down at me.

This discovery, it changed everything.

Carrie began to reevaluate his relationship with Barry.

He started to believe that Barry had been hiding this option from him and his brothers,

and that all the money that Barry had given them over the years, it was a tactic.

Barry wanted to keep this option out of their hands and apotex to himself.

I think a lot of people would say, well, that's a pretty nice gravy train.

The guy's worth billions. Just milk him.

Just take whatever you want from him, buy you houses and cottages.

You know, you don't need to worry for nothing, but it wasn't me.

That wasn't me.

And that's what I want some of the listeners to hear, that I'm not some extortion-shakedown artist, you know.

Some people see me as this ungrateful cousin who had this benevolent Barry who was giving me everything,

and why did you sue him?

And you didn't really have a case.

You know, no, I didn't want anything to do with Barry after the lies and deception and the hurt.

I've already told you about the 10-year court battle, the one that Carrie lost.

But today, sitting with Carrie in his two-bedroom apartment,

a far cry from the kind of place that he lived in when Barry funded his life,

Carrie says he doesn't feel like he lost the fight at all.

And it was during this one of our last, I call it one of our last heart-to-hearts.

And I said, I know, Barry, that I'm going to lose because I know who you are.

I'm not underestimating you, but I'll tell you one thing.

I may lose in the courts, but you'll lose in the court a public opinion.

I told you I'll be your nemesis. I'll do everything I can to ruin you.

Because what you did was you ripped off little orphans.

And you ripped off the orphans of the uncle who raised you since you were nine.

Just as we were finalizing our last episodes, Carrie Winter reached out again.

He told me that he felt he had held back during our first interview, that he had more to tell me.

I've reached out to almost every family member.

Carrie wanted me to know that after the Shermans died, he reached out to their four kids.

He says he did it in an attempt to make peace, to right wrongs.

I've written several emails too. I think their position has been very clear.

You said some terrible things about my father.

You insinuated or suggested my father asked you to arrange my mother's demise.

And you know, go to hell, Carrie.

We're not settling. We're not giving you anything.

It's at this point that Carrie's demeanor changes.

He becomes incredibly focused and his voice gets louder.

It sounds strange, but his eyes actually darken.

Like, become scary black.

I've never seen anything like it.

And why I want the people to know this, if it ever comes down to it.

That's when Carrie says that there's going to be a reckoning.

And he goes on to threaten the lives of the four Sherman children.

I've given them all the chance to come to the table.

I've extended the other bench. I want to sit down with them and make peace.

My brother, Jeffrey, is eating out of dumpsters at a fucking shelter.

It's not about money.

It's about Jonathan sitting with me, man or two, man or two.

And he says he's sorry to me for what his father did.

It's not about money.

Carrie told me that he's been diagnosed with complex PTSD.

The death of his parents so early in life.

Abuse from his adopted father and years of drug addiction all seem to have contributed.

Carrie says he wants the Sherman children to acknowledge the wrongs their father committed against him and his brothers.

And he wants them to fund something like the building of a hospital wing and name it after his late parents.

Carrie says it's not about the money.

But everything about the Sherman's is about the money. Everything.

After this unnerving interview, we decided to call the police.

What Carrie told us could be considered uttering a death threat, which is a criminal offense.

Reporting him wasn't an easy decision.

Trust is really important to me as a journalist and we're not the arm of the police.

Record your message at the tone. When you are finished, hang up or press pound for more options.

My name is Kathleen Goltar and I'm part of a team that's working on a podcast concerning the Barry and Honey Sherman murders.

After calling the police, I told Carrie.

He wasn't particularly happy about it, but he told me he understood.

The police never called back.

After five years, the Toronto police still haven't made an arrest, although they say they have persons of interest.

But we all know that the colder a case gets, the chances of it being solved get further and further away.

And it's not like you can say that this case hasn't garnered attention or resources.

So why has it been so hard to solve?

Sure, a hitman could have snuck in and pulled off an unsolvable murder.

But Carrie's interviews have me thinking right back to where we started.

Right back to the day that Honey and Barry Sherman's bodies were found.

On December 15th, 2017, Toronto police indicated that they had a plausible theory.

That Barry Sherman killed his wife and then killed himself.

Six weeks later, they changed their minds.

Now I'm starting to wonder, why are so many people so sure that the police detectives' first instincts were wrong?

In looking at the autos, just for me, if the hands were bound, for instance, right?

He would have to hang her, then bind his hands and get them behind his back.

So he'd have to do that before he had the belt, right? How does that work?

I mean, it's very complicated to be able to accomplish that. Is it impossible? No, it's not impossible.

That's next time on The No Good, Terribly Kind, Wonderful Lives and Tried to Deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman.

This episode was written and produced by me, Kathleen Goldhart, and Michelle Shepard.

Lisa Gabriel is our producer. It was executive produced by Charlie Webster, along with Lisa Gabriel and myself.

Andrea Varsani is our associate producer. Our technician is Laura Antonelli, sound design and mixing by Reza Daya.

The role of Barry Sherman is played by Saul Rubenek.

Stuart Cox is the executive producer for Antica.

This is Alliance Gate Sound Co-production with CBC Podcasts.

Alliance Gate Sound engineered by Pilgrim Media Group and collaboration with Antica Productions exclusively for CBC.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.

After a notorious 2018 interview on CBC television, Kerry Winter became a familiar figure in the tale of the Shermans’ deaths. “The Cousin Did It” wasn’t just a snappy headline on the cover of The National Enquirer, it also became a favourite theory. Yet Kerry is not a suspect. And all these years later the humiliation, anger, and deep sadness Kerry feels towards his cousin Barry are still right on the surface. How did such a good thing go so bad, and why is Kerry so certain Barry killed Honey then killed himself? Was a man capable of “ripping off little orphans” also capable of killing his own wife? And himself?

Kerry Winter on The Fifth Estate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov7SCivAo5A

For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/the-no-good-terribly-kind-wonderful-lives-and-tragic-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman-transcripts-listen-1.6793254