198 Land med Einar Tørnquist: Bonus: Hamas angriper Israel

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Welcome to a new bonus episode of 198 countries.

Today we are going to go into what happened in Israel and Gaza the last few days.

I'm going to talk about what most of you have experienced.

At least some of you have experienced it.

Because there are more people on Twitter and other social media.

We have seen some pretty impressive images.

The last few days there are a large number of civilians in Israel who have killed or kidnapped.

Hamas, believe in public law and publish the video of the kidnapping.

The victims of the kidnapping each time Israel is bombed in Gaza.

And they do.

Israel's prime minister has ordered a cutting of everything.

The dream and food is to get everything in Gaza.

He says that Israel has beaten human animals.

And that it is a pretty heavy burden now.

So it is more or less a wave spiral.

It is a wave that is going on here.

And that you do not know where it ends.

So I have a question.

Can this be developed to be incredibly bloody?

Can it be a big war in the region?

Will the US, Iran, kill all these things that you think are a bit ugly?

I do not have much to say about that.

So let's call Henrik Tuastani today.

Who can be a little more than me about this.

He is the first lecturer in the Middle Eastern Institute for Cultural Studies and Oriental Language at the University of Oslo.

He has done a lot of field work in the area.

Officially election observers and elections in the Palestine of 1996-2005.

Middle Eastern co-ordinators from Fafo in Jerusalem.

Includes field work in Gaza.

There is a lot of information about this.

So let's just call him.

Hello.

Good day.

Henrik Tuastani.

Yes, good day.

You are one of the lecturers from 198 countries here.

Yes, hi.

You, who are you?

I am the first lecturer at the University of Oslo.

I have a doctorate in Social Anthropology.

I have taken a collection of politics,

politics related to Palestine in Israel and the refugees in Gaza.

Netop.

So you have been a little bit in that area and have some knowledge about it?

Yes.

I first came here in 1988.

I did a field work where I lived in a village in Galilee in 1989-90.

Then you have more than enough knowledge to give me.

Can you give me a little historical context on what is happening in Israel and Gaza right now?

Where should we start?

Yes, where should we start.

Maybe we should start by saying that Gaza is a very special situation.

Because in 1948, when Israel became Danube,

the refugees from the Palestinians lived in Israel.

There were around 70,000 people who lived in Gaza.

One of the oldest villages in Palestine.

And then 140,000-50,000 Palestinians came from Israel into Gaza.

In the fall of 1948, the war went on.

Israel took control of the borders.

Then you got an egyptian occupation in Gaza.

And then in the west of the West,

in the east of Israel, there was a Jordan.

But what was special about Gaza was that

when Israel occupied Gaza in 1967,

there was a very large number of refugees.

What has been characteristic of Gaza,

is that two parts of the population is refugees,

or after the refugees.

They have been very politicized.

And the area of Gaza, the Gaza Strip,

is very small, isn't it?

It's 3-4 kilometers wide and 10 kilometers long.

It's one of the most densely populated areas.

Do you talk about 2-3 million refugees?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

It complicates things, of course.

What has been the last...

What are the events that have caused the attack?

Or how long has it been planned?

What's happening?

What you're not sure about.

What you're not sure about is that it has been planned for a long time.

It has been planned for a long time.

And Hamas...

In the time of the Islamic rule in Gaza,

which has been in 2020,

it would have been a goal to attack Israel

and have control over it.

It's a game, but I don't think so.

You want to control Gaza,

but you've come to the conclusion that the situation is not in place.

And that they want to put down the entire Gaza Strip

and get the weapons and the war on the West Bank.

And actually put down the entire project

to control Gaza as a kind of expulsion,

or alternative control in Palestinian politics.

And the goal for Hamas is the liberation of Palestine.

But every year that has been good,

they have seen that they could control Gaza,

but it doesn't look like they're going to liberate Palestine,

because it's just a historical weakness on the West Bank.

And because it doesn't have to be completely clear,

the West Bank and Gaza are two areas that are not connected.

And Gaza is controlled by Hamas,

but I don't think it's any other control in the West Bank,

not the PA or FATA.

Yes, it's very good that you're asking,

because it's easy to be implicit when you're talking about this.

And the West Bank is controlled by the Palestinian authorities,

which are the largest party in FATA,

which I'm aware of being the leader of,

and some of them are the leader of the base.

They have self-sufficiency,

which was set up after the Oslo process in 1994,

and this is the base president.

They controlled the West Bank and Gaza until 2006,

when there was a wave, where Hamas took part,

and then Hamas' wave,

and then the problem was solved,

and then there was an agreement about the overtakings of the ministry and so on,

and then there was a minor war with the FATA and Hamas in Gaza,

and then Hamas' FATA drove out of Gaza,

and now the Palestinians have been split into two control areas,

one in Gaza and one in Hamas,

and one in West Bank under FATA and the Palestinian self-sufficiency.

And the Palestinian authorities have also known the Palestinian self-sufficiency

and the West Bank, which they had known in 1994,

but did not control Hamas in Gaza.

So now I'm just going to show you that Putin and Abbas would meet now.

Doesn't that seem to be Hamas' self-sufficiency?

No, actually not.

I don't think Putin or the Russians have any special influence on Hamas.

So what you have seen is that the self-sufficiency on the West Bank

is historically weak.

And what Abbas has achieved, as I can say,

is to keep in mind the control of this war.

So you don't have to have violence on the West Bank.

For the last few years, there has been a group like the group

where you have seen Genine, Dablus, Löwenshule,

the youth groups like Angriep, Bosettar and so on.

But that has been completely out of control.

And no, Bosettar is the control of the West Bank.

While Israel and the Palestinian authorities

control Hamas and Palestine in the West Bank.

So when they have tried to counter violent actions,

they have set up a prison.

So there are 5,000 prisoners in Israel's prison.

Some of them are in prison for 20-30 years,

and some of them are in prison.

Most of them are from Hamas and Jihad.

They have had control over this.

Hamas first said that their reason for going into Israel

was to take prisoners for their exchange with these prisoners.

That's because they did it before, right?

Yes, they did it in 2011.

They took an Israeli soldier to prison in 2006.

He has been in prison for 5 years,

and he was released in 2011 against a thousand Palestinian prisoners.

He is now the leader of Hamas in Gaza,

called Yahya Sinjar.

So they changed one prison against a thousand prisoners?

Yes.

So they are hoping to get more or less everything out of there?

Is that what they are planning to do?

Maybe.

Some people think that when you go into Israel

and get massacred by the civilians,

Israel can no longer deal with the prisoners.

That's the outcome.

So if you thought about it,

it would have been a strategic blunder.

But that must have been known.

They might not have thought it was a change.

So that makes the question of what was the reason for this.

It's unclear.

Because they are going to take soldiers and civilians

as prisoners and prisoners for their exchange.

But if at the same time they create,

or after September in Israel,

then the US does not want to deal with the situation

in the same way that Israel could no longer deal with Hamas.

Netop.

Ok, so there is still unclear what the cause is.

That's why I think that what the world can say

is that Hamas wishes a violent attack on the West bread.

It wishes to have the answers.

Because what you have seen in the last few years

is a very serious threat to the West bread,

which is partly a product of

the most extreme Israeli government in history.

With the Bosette leaders,

who establish the Bosette on the West bread,

who sit in the government.

Because it's a very, very broad coalition

that has also taken part in these ultra-autodox parties.

One thing is the ultra-autodoxy.

Another thing is the radical right in Israel.

And those who have a vision that the West bread

should be annexed should be part of Israel.

And we are talking about a de facto one state situation.

The Palestinians are so weak.

As I said, they have a Bosette leader

who is the minister of national security

and is responsible for the national security of the West bread.

Okay, that's a pretty difficult situation.

Yes, and there you have politicians who protect the Bosette,

who make new Bosette,

who, through and beyond,

take action against Palestinians in the country

if there is an attack against the Israeli government.

But, as I said, this country is called Hawara.

You see, the Bosette goes in and puts the house in the fire,

and the people in the bank.

But the Israeli soldiers are sleeping.

And that's what the Palestinian authorities do.

It creates a feeling of silence and sin on the West bread.

And what Hamas has seen

is that the Palestinian authorities on the West bread

are historically weak.

And the sin among the Palestinians on the West bread

is historically strong.

So, the West bread crisis

is that they want to attack the West bread

and get access to weapons and equipment there.

And then they offer their control in Gaza for that.

Yes, because we have to learn that Hamas's control in Gaza is a big coincidence.

But now it's almost impossible for me to think

that this is going to happen again.

Instead of asking if Hamas can continue to have a political role

that will not be treated as a couple around the world.

Yes, I understand that the Norwegian government

is open to talking with Hamas in Norway.

I have to think that, as I said, Gaza is a special prison.

Yes, that's what it looks like.

And there is no escape from Israel,

which has said,

okay, that's just going to be no culture,

no compensation.

So, that's a sin among the people.

As I said earlier,

Hamas is a product of Gaza.

Or rather, Gaza is a product of Hamas.

And when Hamas was involved in the Palestinian election in 2006,

there were many who saw it as a breakthrough.

In the event that Hamas was going to continue with self-defense against Israel,

they would be part of a political process.

But since they won the election,

but they were treated as losers,

they were introduced to a blockade,

and they were no longer allowed to do anything.

So that was the offer that was very unfair in the Norwegian world,

among Hamas first and foremost.

Because Hamas didn't want anything else than Israel.

That's why they were introduced to a blockade of Hamas.

But they had won the election.

And the idea was that they would force them to accept Israel,

but they had gone to the election on a program,

and won the election on that program.

And then you can say that the political development

that has been since 2006,

and the split between the two in 2007,

has been that they had a population there,

they had an economic stagnation,

50% unemployment,

and a feeling of injustice after the election.

So it's a sin,

and the lack of integration of Hamas in the political process,

treating the election as the election,

is something that has led to the fact that Hamas

has become a political responsibility actor,

so they have had a radicalization,

and an increased belief that violence is the solution.

Okay, that's a bit of what has been intended,

that has been around for a long time.

What has happened now in Ljubljana?

Because then we get a kind of invasion,

a kind of rocket attack,

and how do they get into Israel?

We have started a massive rocket attack,

and the rocket attack,

it leads to the Israeli going into the bomb room,

and think, okay, it's something that has been before,

but you haven't seen it before,

that the rocket attack was an elimination maneuver

to start an attack,

through a mini-invasion,

through Gelsa to Israel.

And then,

and then,

the fact that you attack these border posts to Israel,

and then take them,

and drive them down the road,

that was very surprising,

because this area is so,

it's very technologically surprising.

But the last few days,

had you,

or a week or so,

you had demonstrations and protests against the border,

which were clearly orchestrated,

as part of the plan,

and the operation,

and then you saw how many soldiers were there.

So the first thing you did was to take one of these anti-aircraft guns,

and then you got to open it,

and then you had these Paras...

I think it was the Falsheim engine.

Yes, the Falsheim engine that came in,

most of them didn't come in that way,

but many of those who massacred this youth festival,

came through the Falsheims.

So you just got down with the weapon,

and you got the signal on the hangrider,

or something like that?

Yes.

It was completely insane.

The Hamas forces went in there,

and on 21 different places in Israel,

and kept going for a long time.

So it was a completely new,

historical situation,

a situation that has not been before in the history of Israel.

And now you are saying that you have now been massacred

in some of these Kibbutz,

with 150 dead

in these smaller Israeli labor groups,

that you have taken.

So you took up,

God bless you,

a little sign from you,

and from now on.

There are some pretty bad videos out there,

in social media,

because they are there.

Yes.

It is well documented.

Yes, it is clear.

What is the tragedy is that,

for Hamas,

this is the role of the international community,

that an actor wants,

it may not be until the end of Hamas,

but before, among the Palestinians,

we should not forget that

someone wants to see this,

as a victory.

Because those who have,

the same as those who have time

to be recruited to open groups

in the West Bank, in Nablus,

in Genine,

they want to think that this

was their point of view.

Some of them were impressed.

They want to see violence,

violence against Israel,

they want to see it as a success.

Exactly.

So Hamas is becoming

increasingly political,

among the Palestinians.

So it looks,

and tragically,

it looks like a victory for the Palestinians.

While the Palestinian thing,

yes, is back to the old days.

Yes, because now,

now we will have,

it is very clear that this will develop

in the future.

What is the situation,

for now,

there are some Israeli refugees

inside Gaza.

Yes, now there is,

there is one more thing,

if this is what we are talking about.

What is a paradox,

is that now we are talking about

cutting the dough to the Palestinians,

that goes to these possibilities

in the West Bank,

because no dough goes to Hamas,

and EO is out,

we have to cut the dough,

we have to cut the dough to the Palestinians,

we have to tear the dough,

but it is actually part of Hamas,

its goal,

that the Palestinian authorities

will legislate

so that there will be chaos in the West Bank.

So,

such an indirect consequence

of the idea of cutting the dough

to the Palestinian authorities

in the West Bank,

is that at the same time

there is,

I must say,

useful idiots for Hamas.

Yes, but how,

on the basis of this,

is it because you see that

the business models

that were sent to Hamas

I don't think it is serious,

I believe so,

but you think that some of the Palestinians

are punished,

and then you mix

the West Bank and Gaza,

and the Palestinians are one,

so it is obvious

that there is a difference

between the self-sufficiency

in the West Bank and Gaza.

Yes,

because there are two different areas

with two different policies.

There are two different policies,

and where you understand,

I remember an interview,

a leader in the PLO,

a couple of youth sessions,

once he said,

there are two types of people

who understand,

two types of relations

to Hamas,

it is those who hate Hamas,

and then it is those who hate Hamas

very much.

So you have,

you have,

they have had

an extremely bad relationship

in 2020,

so,

but,

yes,

so,

so it can be said,

in the end,

there will be chaos,

just put down the West Bank,

but alternatively,

you can say that,

this is due to the fact

that the Palestinian self-sufficiency

in the West Bank

comes back to Gaza.

That is the other scenario,

because Israel can not

reocupy Gaza,

I have never known.

Okay,

and then,

we are also in that situation now,

that,

there we are,

that

Israel strikes Gaza,

cuts all the refugees in,

Gaza,

or Hamas,

has a part of

the Israeli forces in

Hossai,

that they have believed in,

and have done,

one after another,

as a kind of power force.

It is,

as we are,

as he heard,

the Israeli Foreign Minister said,

that they,

now they are fighting

against humans,

animals,

and we are dealing with them,

which is a

little diplomatic rhetoric.

What is it that,

what will happen now?

It is,

it feels,

as if it is,

an attack to a massacre,

because,

because,

that is the problem,

that,

the civilian population,

in,

the Palestinian civilian population,

in Gaza,

is now,

a kind of,

gist,

foreign situation,

and they are,

and,

you can say that,

gist,

the Israeli gist,

the living soul of Hamas,

but it is also,

Gaza's civilian population.

Hamas,

his,

has been prepared for this,

and his,

his,

the world's largest city,

in Bunker,

and,

is prepared for this.

So,

so,

but,

to free the gist,

to,

to be in what is,

not difficult,

to go into such a city,

to take,

street by street,

and,

house by house,

but that is,

the Israeli woman,

has to do,

and then they,

try to drive,

civilian population,

away first,

and then,

investigate these houses,

but that will be,

the,

the,

what is done,

on the short side,

you have to take,

kilometers,

kilometers,

kilometers.

So, this,

if you,

should,

I mean,

see a crystal cave,

which is,

completely hopeless,

but,

you might see,

that this is something,

that goes very fast over.

No.

You have to,

Israel,

has to,

go massively,

with,

behind the scenes,

to,

free the gist,

and,

if it goes fast,

then,

risk their own loss.

Hmm.

Can you open,

such,

humanitarian corridors,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

and,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

to,

The flight is again, it has a historic resonance, just like the Branded Fortress, which is one and a half feet away from Israel.

So it's not a part that just thinks that they are going to die or fly to the future.

So it's not certain that there is willpower at once in terms of flying?

I mean, I think that there is willpower to fly in Gaza, but you have been driven historically,

and now Israel has been offered to fly to Gaza.

So that's a part that wants to have a strong resistance to that.

Okay, that was both very exciting and very depressing to follow along with this.

I have heard that Iran has been named here, is there someone who,

is it because they think that Iran is more on financing Hamas' strengths, so to speak?

Yes, it is highly documented that Iran is more on financing the Palestinian open group,

first of all the Islamic jihad, but also the open flight of Hamas.

But it is also a scenario that Israel wants to destroy the Iranian nuclear attack.

And the fact that Iran has supported Hamas and the Islamic jihad in Gaza,

and Kisbollah in Lebanon, it is a part of Iran's terror balance against such an attack.

If Israel is going to attack the Iranian positions,

then they will press the button and say,

now you are going to attack Lebanon and Hamas' jihad from Hamas.

It is such a terror balance.

But in such a way, it seems very uncertain that the Iranian starting point should have interest

and that Hamas would attack Israel now, because that would require an Israeli attack.

And there was Tomfos Trømm, today Henrik?

Hello?

We missed that.

Are you Tomfos Trømm or were you?

No, I don't know what's going on.

Are you Tomfos Trømm?

It's not Iran or what is going on.

I don't know what to say.

Just go out and talk to Hamas while I talk to you.

We are going to start talking to Jan Tomas in this studio, so we have all been there.

But before we run, what is the situation that Iran is being dragged into a war

that the US has to report because this is developing in a way that we don't want?

It is this with the fact that Israel can attack Iran, which is a consequence of this.

What it does is stop the General Assembly of the United States from attacking Iran.

I have had an opportunity to get Israel to attack Iran, but it has never been higher.

That is why the US has sent this war ship to Kyrgyzstan.

It is to try to stop his bullets and be in Iran.

But it is one thing that they should attack Israel first.

Another thing is that Israel should attack Iran first.

This is a very shaky situation.

I have to say thank you for being with us.

We will never get through this mess.

But at least talk to us a little bit.

Thank you for being quiet.

Good luck with all the other interviews you will do in the coming weeks.

Thank you.

Have a good day.

Bye.

What can you say?

This is not very popular.

The attack on a massacre was named.

The Great War is named.

I don't know what to say.

We have to be very happy with this in the coming weeks.

And just hope for the best.

There are some cool times in the way.

The war is back on the agenda.

Both in Europe.

There are ethnic groups in Azerbaijan, Nagorno-Karabakh.

We have this conflict that is going on in Israel.

We are going to follow it.

And cross our fingers.

Because the escalating things are going on.

Then you can just go home.

We are going to talk about Ukraine in the coming weeks.

See you next time.

Bye.

Don't forget to subscribe to the channel.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.