Casefile True Crime: Anonymous Host first interview (Unfiltered podcast)

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I am excited to announce the launch of Unfiltered, the latest podcast from Casefire Presents.

Unfiltered has been in the works for a long time now.

It will be hosted by Raquel O'Brien, whose extraordinary podcast Silent Waves was the

first show released on the Casefire Presents platform.

After getting to know Raquel and seeing how talented she is at interviewing people from

all walks of life, I knew that she had to have her own conversation style podcast.

And thus Unfiltered was born, a podcast that provides an exploration into human experiences.

No topic is off limits.

These raw and honest conversations will open you up to a range of perspectives and invite

you to make up your own mind.

Although I don't host the show, Unfiltered has several tie-ins with Casefire.

The first episode features the first in-depth interview I've ever given.

It's a long chat, and you'll get to know some things about me that I've never spoken

about publicly.

Raquel is the only person I felt comfortable having this conversation with.

The second episode stars two key witnesses from Case 78 of Casefire, the Janabi family.

Former US soldier Justin Watt and his former sergeant John Deane join Raquel to speak about

their experiences in war and what it was like to blow the whistle on war crimes.

Future episodes feature a diverse range of guests from all walks of life.

Some are connected to Casefire episodes or one of our Casefire Presents series, while

others are completely unrelated.

But all feature real stories about justice and transformation.

The first two episodes are available now wherever you get your podcasts.

All subsequent episodes will be released weekly.

Stay tuned to hear my interview with Raquel in full, then be sure to head to the Unfiltered

feed to listen to the second episode.

Hit the follow button for Unfiltered so you don't miss an episode.

At the time, Casey was recovering from an unexplained medical issue.

Our chats reminded me of the power of real and raw conversations and it paved the way

for Unfiltered.

The new Casefire Presents podcast, where guests from all walks of life join me for a conversation

about justice and transformation.

In our first episode, I'm joined by Casey himself as he generously opens a window into

parts of his own story that he's never before shared in the hopes his experience might reach

someone who needs to hear it.

Thank you for joining me, Raquel O'Brien, for our new show, Unfiltered.

I remember the first podcast I listened to.

It was serial by This American Life and I was instantly captivated by the storytelling.

From that point on, I was hooked to podcasting, the medium.

Can you tell me about your introduction into podcasting and if there was a show that you

got hooked on way back when you started listening?

Yeah, so I do remember the first podcast I ever listened to.

It was actually a music one, nothing to do with storytelling.

It was in-depth conversations with bands and musicians that I like.

I remember one of my good friends, who I was living with at the time, the first mentioned

podcast to me.

I'd never heard of the word before.

This was in 2009.

Obviously podcasting has exploded since then.

Back in 2009, the options were much more limited.

But I came across this podcast from Alternative Press and they had interviews with bands against

me, Bring Me the Horizon, Saves the Day, many others, bands that I listened to.

I'd never heard anything like it because they were those in-depth conversations that went

for hours and I was just so engaged by it and so drawn into the conversations.

It was so interesting listening to the bands that you like because usually you're limited

to a Q&A in a magazine or sound bites or little clips here and there.

I never had the chance to experience those in-depth conversations and I was instantly

drawn in.

So that was my first introduction.

Then my next big love of podcasting came a few years after that.

I still remember the fight.

It was Nick Diaz vs. BJ Penn was back in 2011.

Is this UFC we're talking about?

UFC.

Yes.

Yes, two fantastic fighters.

After the fight, Nick Diaz won and he was being interviewed by UFC commentator Joe Rogan.

Of course.

And Diaz yells into the mic, train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night all day.

And I remember thinking, oh, does Joe Rogan have a podcast?

That's cool.

I should maybe check that out too.

And so been listening ever since then.

So again, obviously a conversational podcast, nothing to do with storytelling or documentaries

or anything like that.

Those were my first two podcasting loves.

And this Joe Rogan, you were introduced to Joe Rogan.

When was this a timeframe?

Was it 20, 2000 and?

I actually, I remember the fight.

I looked it up.

It's 2011.

So yeah.

2011.

Wow.

And now case file was started in 2016.

So there are a few years between you falling in love with Joe Rogan, for example, his podcast

and then talk to me about the inspiration behind you starting case file.

That's what got me hooked into podcasting and I just loved it so much.

And it was always in the back of my mind, could I start a podcast?

And obviously my first ideas revolved around what I was listening to.

So interview style, conversational, throwing up ideas of sport podcasts, music podcasts,

and certainly nothing like case file.

But ultimately, I sort of knew that I'm not really suited to that style, like what you

are doing.

You're a fantastic host and interviewer and me, not so much.

So I knew I wanted to do it, but I just didn't have a clear vision, a clear idea.

There was a period there where Joe would have guests on.

And it was pretty much every episode where he was telling his guests, start a podcast.

And this would have been around 2014-15, before case file, so 2015 say.

And he was just drilling it into the guests.

And then just, I'd always had it in the back of my mind that I wanted to do it, but then

just listening to that, it just became stronger and stronger.

And I just remember thinking, well, why can't I?

I can do it.

And then I again, looked at it seriously, like what can I do?

What can I offer?

There's got to be something that I can start.

And I think it was around that time when Cereal might have been a few years before, I'm not

exactly, I can't remember exactly when Cereal was released in 2014, 2014, there you go.

So yeah, certainly around that time.

So I was late to the party with Cereal.

I didn't listen to that to 2015.

But obviously was immediately taken in by the storytelling and that documentary style

of podcast.

And that was a whole new thing for me, because I'd just been listening to the conversation

interview style of podcast.

I remember thinking, wow, that's amazing.

So that's when my mind started ticking over, this I would really love to do something

like that.

I think I could offer something there.

So then I was playing around with ideas like, what would I do?

Would I do that documentary investigative style?

But also I got hooked onto another podcast, Hardcore History, somewhere around that time

as well, maybe a bit before, by Dan Carlin, which is a single narrator, just Dan Carlin,

and just telling you a story essentially.

There's no interview clips, there's no anything else, it's just him speaking, telling you

a story.

But that as well is so engaging and just pulls you in and you're picturing what you're listening

to, you think you're there.

That is such, that's so captivating as well.

And so there was a couple of options there, I had that Cereal style investigative approach

that I was thinking and I had the Dan Carlin, Hardcore History.

And then what happened is I suffered a serious injury, sporting injury, serious knee injury.

It was an ACL, MCL got snapped.

And that was a fairly long recovery and ACL is a long enough recovery anyway.

After the surgery, you're looking at a good 9 to 12 months before you're back 100%.

Well, longer really until you're back fully 100%, but that was made even longer because

I suffered the MCL tear as well.

So I had to go into a knee brace for six weeks to let the MCL tear heal before they

had to operate on the ACL.

So it was a bit of a punish of an injury.

And that was on the back of a shoulder reconstruction, which I'd had the year before

and another knee surgery, not as serious that year as well.

So I've just gone on this run of injuries and surgeries.

And when I went to a bit of a dark place when I did the ACL.

And what sport are we talking about here?

What sporting, what sports were you playing that we're getting you so injured?

The ACL MCL was a very, very, very low level game of rugby league.

So I never played sport at any high level whatsoever.

I was just, you know, I was just an average battler at everything I did.

And yeah, but, you know, ultimately doesn't matter how low level the game is,

it's still a contact sport and things can still snap.

And that's what happened.

So yeah, just got caught in a tackle and the tackle went wrong.

And my knee went away that knees aren't supposed to go.

And despite, despite you being such a chiller, so down to earth, so relaxed,

you are competitive on the field.

Isn't that right?

It's a different case here on the field.

Yeah, it can be not just on the field.

Pretty much I do have a competitive streak.

I'm not sure where it comes from in pretty much everything I do.

White line fever, some might call it.

Yeah, that's probably fair to say.

It is, but back to back to you being bedridden for six weeks,

thinking about making a podcast.

Yeah, so that really, I never really thought too much about mental health

until that time.

So after that injury, I went to a really dark place.

And that's when I really, it really smacked me in the face, mental health.

That's when I really started realising different things about mental health

and things that I'd been going through since a young age.

And, you know, understanding all the talk around mental health,

because there was no chat about it.

Of course. A little bit old and you recall,

but when you were younger growing up, there probably still wasn't them,

was there? It's only in recent times that you've heard more about it.

No, very recently.

And when you say you were smacked with it in your face

for your own personal experience, but out in the world,

what were you starting to see people talking about?

Was it suicide awareness for men that was?

Yeah, suicide awareness was one, but also just the talk of the black dog

and all that stuff and seeking help and being encouraged to talk

about your problems and stuff like that.

And obviously, that's a very polar opposite to how I was brought up.

Well, probably to how most people were brought up really in Australia anyway.

It was always don't burden anyone with your problems.

Just suck it up, take it all in, get knocked down, get up, carry on.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. And that's when I just, I just went to a dark place.

I'd never experienced anything like it.

I was like, holy shit, I was just in a hole

because I knew what was in front of me again after just rehabbing

those couple of injuries.

I was very diligent with my rehab to the shoulder.

I used to do stuff at work with the bands

and made sure I did everything the physio said

because I just wanted to get back to full health, you know,

not for, as I said, I wasn't playing sport anywhere near any sort of a late level.

But it was just, you know, it's my hobby.

It's my escape sport fitness.

So I just wanted to get back to full health.

And, you know, I remember I used to cop

shit from people at work with the rubber bands and doing the exercises and stuff.

But, you know, they're friendly banter, not serious.

I can imagine.

Yeah. So I was very diligent with that and just got through that.

And then ACL got on my God.

And I, yeah, just just slipped.

Just that was the first time when I actually

sought out help.

I did go and speak to someone a couple of times just about different stuff.

And that was helpful.

And I realized I really needed to do something.

There is no way because with the shoulder

surgery and the knee surgery prior to that, as diligent as I was

with the rehab and the recovery and the physio.

I didn't do much.

I mean, I've binged a lot of series, you know, Netflix and whatever else.

A lot of podcasts to hate a lot of ice creams.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, fast food just, you know, just took it easy, relaxed.

But I knew with this ACL, so I've got to do something that this is not good.

This is not healthy.

So that's again, where the podcast was like, well, look,

I've been thinking about this for years at this point.

It's probably time just I've got time now.

I've got nothing but time.

I've got six weeks of just waiting before they can even do a surgery

for a nine, 12 month recovery.

So it's time to just focus on something.

And so with all those things that I mentioned before, listening to serial

and hardcore history and Joe Rogan and and everything else.

I decided and how true crime came about.

Obviously, serial was the big one there with the true crime podcasts.

It might be hard for people to remember, but back then in 2015,

there weren't any true crime podcasts.

I mean, there were a few as a handful.

You could probably count them on one hand, nothing like it is today.

So the serial making a murder was also big on Netflix around that time.

I remember watching that and I'd always I'd always had an interest

in true crime from reading books from when I was young to watching documentaries.

You know, one of the first books I read was Helter Skelter.

On Charles Manson, I also remember being

hooked on a ABC television drama, docuseries Blue Murder.

Right, I don't know it.

Yes. So Blue Murder looks at like police corruption in Sydney

in the 70s, 80s, looking at Roger Rogerson,

Nettie Smith, the murder of Sally Ann Huckstaff,

the shooting of police officer McJury or politicians, police officers.

All the dodgy stuff that was going on back then, the real high level corruption.

And I remember it's been hooked on that series.

And after watching that, I don't think I don't remember when it was aired,

but I probably watched it a few years after it came out, whenever it was.

But I remember getting all the books I could find on that subject.

Materials had books on Roger, books, Nettie Smith, McJury wrote a book

and a book on Sally Ann Huckstaff and just read everything I could about that.

It was just found it fascinating.

But there was that there was held a skeleton.

The Westminster's three case had an interest in for a long time as well.

So those are just different cases that I was always interested in

that we had serial making a murderer.

So it was always there that interest in true crime.

And I guess that's what planted the seed for a true crime podcast.

That, you know, there weren't many true crime podcasts.

And I remember listening to the few that were there and I just thought,

well, there really is space here for this Dan Carlin hardcore history

style of true crime podcast, just a single narrator telling story,

you know, in depth research.

Yes. And let's try that.

You found your niche.

It's funny you mentioned about the interest in true crime,

because I remember as when I was really young, we got foxtel at our house

and there was this there was a crime channel.

And I got so hooked on the idea of like forensic investigation.

And there was a show called 48 hours and following how the police would

go about their investigations in those first 48 hours.

And so I got really interested as well.

So much so that I thought I wanted to be a forensic scientist when I was 10

until I looked into it a little further and figured out what they did.

And I'll just talk about it.

I think I'll stick with talking about it.

Yeah. Pass.

Yeah. I was hooked on the same shows as well.

Yeah. I watched all of those.

All of those ones.

But let's talk about, OK, so then you're sitting there and you're thinking, OK,

so now's the time.

What's the first thing that you do when you decide it's time to make a podcast?

You start, well, how did you decide what was the first step?

So the first episode was the Wonder Beach Murders.

And that was a case I remember hearing about since I could even remember

since I was a kid, hearing about the Wonder Beach Murders.

And I realized when I was thinking about, well, where do I start?

What case do I look at?

I realized that was a case that I had heard about so much my whole life.

And I could not tell you a single thing about it. Wow.

And so I thought, well, I'll just start there.

Let's just look into this case and and see what happens.

And yeah, involved, you know, tracking down a rare out of print

book that was only available in one library that I had to travel to.

And I couldn't take it out of the library.

You had to look at it there because it was so rare,

because hunting down newspaper archives and all that stuff

and just finding out every fact I could about the case.

I had no experience writing.

So I cringe a little bit when I read those early scripts.

And just think, oh, God, I know some people like them,

but I do wonder if they're looking back through rose-colored glasses there.

If they actually went back and listened and compared to the later episodes.

Wonderful. Yeah.

So but anyway, the idea for Case 4 was certainly there.

Just that lay the facts out.

No opinions, no discussions.

Just here's the facts.

Place, date, time. This is what happened.

Here's everything we could find.

We don't have.

One thing I really am not a fan of in documentaries is presenting something

with an agenda.

I don't have to name any names.

You know, I'm sure everyone has experienced documentaries at times

where they're not presenting facts in an objective manner.

They're presenting facts to suit their agenda.

And that's something that I really wanted to avoid with Case 4.

There'd be none of that.

These are just the facts that we can find.

If there's conflicting facts, like, you know, the prosecution argues this,

the defense counterclaims with this, you know, we lay them both out.

You decide.

Great.

Or you make up your mind or you think happened or you come up with your own theories.

We're not here to tell you how to think or, you know, this is why this couldn't be true

because of this and you should think this and this person couldn't have done it

because of this.

You know, I'm just not personally a fan of that.

And in doing that, you avoid sensationalizing the cases.

And I think that's what a lot of people love about Case 4,

is that they can go into listening and it's not infected by people's opinions

on such sensitive topics that we're talking about.

And I think you've done that really well.

Yeah, thanks, Ricoh.

Definitely. And then when you consider it's true crime, we're talking about

these real lives, real victims, real horrific things that have happened.

I mean, don't get me wrong.

I think there is a place for discussion and stuff like that as well.

This is not a critique of other podcasts or other documentaries that have that style

that clearly there's massively popular shows like that.

It's just personally, that's not my style.

But I think there's room for everyone's styles.

But, you know, it's not so much the discussion

that I have an issue with anyway.

It's the bias, the agenda, the agenda driven presentation

is sort of what I'm talking about here, which I really don't like.

And so that was something that was really clear from you from the start

is that you didn't want Case 4 to have an agenda.

You went in making the podcast with that in mind from the start.

Yeah, 100 percent.

Awesome. And what about the equipment?

How did you know what to use you?

It was literally a one man show.

So what did you do to record the first few episodes?

So I had a device and an Apogee one that had a built in mic on it.

And it was actually something I got to play to plug your guitar in

to hook your guitar up to the computer so you can record on GarageBand.

But then I saw that it had a mic in there.

So I thought, well, I'll just use that.

Plugged that in, recorded on GarageBand.

Had no idea what I was doing.

I mean, I had the microphone set down on a desk or something.

I wasn't even talking into it properly and just recorded

and just tried to throw in some music from like free music sites

and tried to find suitable music to put underneath.

And the production was horrible.

It was so bad.

And that was the benefit of some of the early comments.

When I launched that first episode or those first few episodes,

the feedback was mostly positive.

It was pretty encouraging, actually.

It was like, oh, this is really good content.

But can you get someone to look at your sound?

It sounds really bad.

But it was constructive feedback.

You know, it's not like the just hate mail that we get today.

But yeah, it was really constructive early feedback.

And I'm very thankful for that to this day, those early listeners

who provided that because that's what made me realise, yeah,

they're 100 percent right.

This sounds terrible.

I've got no idea what I'm doing.

And I put an ad out on a freelance website just for I didn't even know

what I was asking for.

I'm like, what do I have a podcast?

I need help with sound or something was the ad.

It was some basic ad and yeah.

And that's where that's where Mike came in to the picture.

Mike came in. Yeah.

So he's been in early days around episode seven, I think.

And there was about 20 or 30 people who responded to this ad

and having no idea what I was asking for, what I was looking for,

who I needed exactly.

I just I sent them a five minute clip or something of an episode

and said, here's a clip.

You just show me what you can do with it.

And, you know, some people sent it back, some people didn't.

Mike was one of the people who sent it back.

And it just there was a clear difference between listening to what Mike sent back

and what everyone else sent back.

I thought, oh, this is like head and shoulders above what everyone else has done.

So just really stood out.

And at the time, Mike was working for Pinewood, dubbing Disney movies.

So he was. Yeah, I think he just left.

And I think that's why he set up the freelance profile.

Yeah. And I remember reading that.

He's, you know, his resume like worked on Disney films and this film.

And that was like, oh, I can't afford this.

Yeah, literally sounds way too qualified.

And I'm just sitting in the spare room at my desk trying to make these podcasts

with the dogs barking in the background.

Was it there? Was there the dogs?

Yes, the early problems, trees rustling and birds in the tree

and dogs barking, lawn mowers going.

And yeah, so I remember talking to Mike going when he said he was interested.

I was like, oh, I don't really like, I don't have a budget as such.

And he said, no, I remember him saying, it's fine.

You know, like I've just started freelancing.

This sounds interesting.

His different sort of work podcasting.

I've never, I don't think he even had listened to podcasts at that point.

Yeah, he's not into true crime either.

No, not at all. No, he wasn't into.

No, still not, but he he said he'd do it for 10 bucks an hour.

Just super cheap.

I was like, oh, OK, I can afford that.

That's cool. Sold. Sold.

Take it. Take my money.

So that's how that started.

And what episode did Mike come in?

Pretty sure it was seven.

I'm sure that was the first episode he worked on.

Really early days.

And what about for the writing side of things?

Because it was something that you didn't really enjoy doing.

Is that right?

It caused a lot of stress.

Or did you like the writing process?

Do you like writing the episodes for case file?

I don't mind it. Yeah, it's I just I know my limitations with it.

So maybe it's not as correct to say that I enjoy the writing.

It's more the the researching and putting together the information.

Then when it comes to writing, I realize I am very limited with that.

But also I was going back to I'd had my few months off work

and I was going back to work, reduced the hours.

But then they slowly build you back into full time.

Just because I was still rehabbing the knee at that point.

It was only a few months after the surgery.

Or a few months after the injury, whatever it was.

I forget exactly when I went back.

But they the hours were slowly building up and my time was running out.

And people were actually listening to this podcast and it's like, wow.

Of course.

Actually, I do remember now it was when I was back full time

because it was around episode 30 when I first got someone to help with their writing.

So I would have been back well and truly full time at that point.

So the hours were very, very limited at this point.

And I knew I couldn't keep going how I was.

I needed help because there were times where, you know,

I'd finish a night shift and just sleep for three hours and wake up

and have to work on the podcast because it was starting to really get popular

at that point by episode 30.

I remember being blown away when I released the first episode.

And my goal was to get a hundred listens.

Wow.

Imagine if a hundred people listen to this, that'll be interesting.

And I got that in 24 hours.

Wow. On the first episode.

Yeah. In the first episode, I remember being blown away by that.

I was like, wow, could it get to a thousand?

And then it got to a thousand in a week that was blowing my mind at that point.

And then it was just slow growth from there.

But by the time episode 30 was out, you know, it was starting to really be.

I don't remember what the listens would have been at that point.

Maybe it was up in the tens of thousands by that point.

Twenty, thirty thousand an episode or something.

So I was starting to get popular.

Yeah. And you have that responsibility to deliver now because you've got an audience.

That's right.

And I just remember being under that much pressure and stress for it just because of.

Well, I loved doing the podcast, but work was getting in the way.

And yes, of course.

Yes. That's what I wanted to talk to you about.

I wanted to talk to you about your decision to leave stable employment

and partake on this journey of case file.

Yeah, I was very fortunate with work.

Work were very supportive.

I remember telling the boss about this podcast

and he's looking at me through squinted eyes.

I thought, what podcast trying to explain?

Oh, is that on? Is that on the Internet?

Is it? You know, he's like, I can't wait to watch it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So so you're writing books on the Internet or he had no idea what I was talking about.

But once he got his head around it, you're very supportive.

And when it came time, it was 2017, where it really was taking off.

That's when it was starting to get millions of downloads and it was crazy.

And that's when I thought this is an opportunity

that has presented itself through a lot of hard work, too.

But, you know, this opportunity is here now.

I would really like to try it full time and work.

Thankfully, gave me 12 months off leave without pay.

So it was a really big safety net there.

I could take that risk, try it full time, see what happened.

And that 12 months went so quick.

Yeah. I remember when the when one of the bosses called me and said,

mate, just calling you up. It's time to come back to work.

I just remember going, wow, didn't realize a year could go that quick.

And I wasn't ready. I hadn't made a decision.

So I asked for more time off. Can I have another six months?

Right. They said, no, sorry.

You need to come back.

And then they looked at different things I could.

They were considering offering stuff like

set days or something.

I think it was at that time.

It was still full time hours, but a set roster, if that could help,

because they needed people. Right.

But ultimately, I just thought, well,

it's worked for a year.

There's no reason why it can't work for another year or two or a couple of years.

And just keep going with it and see what happens.

I remember having conversation with a good mate

at that time, and he said, you are crazy if you go back to work.

And that was a really smart guy.

He encouraged you.

Yeah, he's a very smart guy and, you know, always treat his advice highly.

And it just wasn't even a decision for him.

He was just looking at me like, what do you mean?

Don't go back to work.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I realized, yeah, OK, this this opportunity is here.

It's time to leave work, that stable employment and just try this full time

and see what happens.

And look, I wanted to know if there were any points

through the process where you stopped and thought, wait a minute,

what the fuck have I just done and thought about stopping?

Or what was that like for you with case file?

No, probably Covid.

When Covid hit and the world shut down, I was like, oh, no.

What have I done here?

And how did you push through that?

How did you overcome that thought?

Well, the it was sort of not great science initially,

because obviously we survive with advertising dollars.

That's what pays the bills and.

Advertisers like everyone else in the world when the pandemic hit

really pulled out the ads were getting canceled left, right in the center.

I was just thinking like, how long is this going to go on for?

Is it done now? Is podcasting done?

You know, so there's some stressful days there.

But ultimately, it was only probably a month or two to get on track.

And if you look at our analytics of listeners, you can see a massive

it just goes off a cliff when the pandemic hit.

Really? You know, for all sorts of reasons, obviously,

people's anxiety was through the roof.

Is the world ending? What's happening here?

People are no longer going to work.

No one's commuting. No one's going on holidays.

No one's going to the gym. No one's doing anything.

People are stuck at home.

And I think the streaming services, the TV streaming services,

went through the roof at that point and podcasts went the other way.

But it was, as I said, it turned around very quickly for us anyway.

I mean, I'm only speaking from case follows point of view.

Those were the only numbers I was privy to.

But after a month or two, it just slowly came back on the app.

Advertisers came back when they realized people were still listening.

And ultimately, from a bit of a shaky initial start there,

we were very, very fortunate during the pandemic and the lockdowns

that we could keep doing what we could do, pretty much unaffected.

Yes, definitely.

Exactly. You do have that luxury of working from home

and not being live as well in the same room as people,

because a lot of podcasts these days require you to be in the same room

as someone to interview them and the show, the show style.

What about, though, your decision to remain anonymous?

Yeah, again, that came just to the style of the show that I wanted to do

with that single narrator storytelling and not having any sort of agenda

or coming from any angle or bias or anything.

I thought that worked better just having a voice,

just having a voice, telling you a story, who this person is, is not important.

Just telling the facts, respect to victims, no personality.

I thought that suited the style of show I wanted to do.

So I went with that.

I mean, at the time, I wasn't expecting anyone to listen to this either.

So it's not like it was this massive decision

and well thought out and had this plan that I'm going to be this anonymous host

and how good this is going to be.

It's going to add to the mystique of the show.

There was none of that.

It was like this was literally a hobby to fill in time

until I recovered and went back to work.

A hundred people listening, I would have been happy with.

And I was expecting to maybe do a few episodes and yeah, OK, I'll try that.

That was good. Now I'm back at work and the podcast is done.

So I think I wasn't expecting it to take off.

It has now become a bit of a thing, the anonymous host.

And yeah, well, exactly.

It is a thing, definitely a thing combined with your voice.

I mean, it's super mysterious, super.

It was very unintentional, not unintentional,

but I mean, obviously it was a conscious decision to be anonymous,

but certainly wasn't expecting the show's success that we've had.

Very thankful for that.

And right at currently case files

clocked over is it six hundred million downloads that you're hitting now?

Probably more. All time. Yes.

All time downloads over six hundred million. Yep.

So you're definitely global, definitely global.

And what I wanted to know, though,

what do you hope to achieve in covering these cases to such a large audience?

For me, when we when it started taking off and getting this massive audience,

massive global reach, I really saw an opportunity there

to be able to help to help get families' stories out, unsolved cases.

Obviously, we don't just do unsolved cases.

We do a lot of solved cases.

That too stemming from from early feedback,

because the first few episodes of case file were all unsolved and that was intentional.

But then with that feedback, with the audio, I was also getting feedback like,

I'd be good to cover solved cases too.

And have you considered that?

And, you know, I just thought, well, if that's what people want to hear,

we can do that while also doing unsolved.

But for me, it has and we have been able to do it

offer family members, you know, loved ones and victims a platform

to get their stories out, to give them a voice.

Definitely. You have and you've done it so well.

Are there any examples of case file episodes

having helped reach new witnesses or new information in cases?

There has been a few people that have reached out to me

on past cases that we've covered with interesting information

and and stuff that I've actually forwarded to the relevant police agencies,

crime stoppers or whoever, wherever it is in the world.

What's come of it, I don't know.

Certainly, you know, case file hasn't solved any cases or anything like that.

But yeah, there has been information that has come in

and how beneficial that has been to investigators.

Who knows, because they don't give you feedback on that.

So thanks for the info, what they do with it, who knows?

Of course, of course.

For me, I remember getting into case file.

Case file was the first Australian podcast I listened to

and that was in 2016.

Shortly after I listened to Siri, I got into case file

and I started with Silk Road.

I remember going on Reddit and it was like,

which case file episode should I start with?

Because by then you had like 100 and blah episodes out, 120 or whatever.

And I started Silk Road and I thought it was brilliant.

The storytelling and just the type of crime

was the first time I'd heard about the dark web, for example,

when this Silk Road company that was like eBay in the black market.

And then another case that really stuck with me was the Janabi family

about the US soldiers in Iraq.

I highly recommend people to listen to that episode.

And I was wondering for you, if there were any episodes

through these years that have stuck with you more than maybe other cases?

Yeah, it's a hard one to answer because they pretty much all do

for a certain period when you're working on them, when you're recording them

and they all stick with you and have some sort of effect.

But then obviously with so many cases, sometimes, you know,

a new case will then stick with you and maybe not so much the other one.

But they're always there.

The Janabi family certainly one, one that you mentioned.

All of the cases that we've worked on where we have interviewed family members

or helped family members, spoken to family members,

they always stick with you that extra bit

because you just want to see a result for that family

to have something happen in that case and arrest or break through something.

New witnesses, whatever it may be.

You want nothing more for that to happen for them.

So a lot of the unsolved ones still stick with me.

And how do you go about when you're dealing with such heavy content

and talking to sometimes the victims, families and so forth?

How do you go about switching off from that at home

or being able to separate your personal life from your work life

when it's so it's you're so involved in the process of writing and researching?

Was actually only yesterday I was listening to a podcast

and someone was talking about that someone who ran a company

saying it's not just going to work nine to five and running your company.

You never switch off. Yeah.

And it's much like running a podcast that there is I never switch off.

There's no such thing as a day off, even on a day off in quotes.

There's always something in my mind.

I'm thinking about something, stuff that needs to be done,

got all the case file presents stuff now as well, which we're working on many other shows.

How I do try and have some downtime is music is a big one and fitness and fitness.

Fitness has always been a big part of my life for various reasons.

But very important now, you know,

training, just exercise at the gym, running whatever Jiu-Jitsu as well,

which I've gotten into in the last few years, that's a big one.

I noticed a difference.

I noticed a big difference during lockdown when I couldn't do Jiu-Jitsu.

I know, I know.

But also during lockdown, you did the David Goggins challenge,

which just to remind everyone, it's where you had to run four miles

every four hours for 48 hours. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's right, which is about six and a half Ks, four miles, six and a half Ks.

Yeah. So I managed to run eight of those legs and another four.

I had to get on a a rower or elliptical machine and, you know,

the rules of the challenge are that you can, you know, doesn't have to be running.

If you don't run, you've got to do 45 minutes of something.

So just due to my, I was in big trouble during that challenge at different times,

physically, my legs, so I just physically couldn't go anymore.

So that's why I had to jump on the rower and the elliptical machine

and just because I wanted to finish it no matter what.

So I had to sub out some of the legs.

I would like to finish it all running one year, but yeah, it was still hard.

Yeah, that was a good challenge.

I recommend it for anyone listening.

Really, really, because David Goggins is renowned for pushing his body past

its own, its limits, you know, and so why, what, what encouraged you to choose

such an extreme physical challenge?

That's what I'm interested in.

I guess I was just drawn to it just because I know how much of a mental

challenge it would be, I'm interested in stuff like that.

Because I don't care who you are, you're going to feel it.

If you do something like that for 48 hours, it doesn't matter how

fit you are, what you've done, there's going to be a point during a challenge

like that, where it becomes a mental battle.

Because there's a lack of sleep as well.

It's every five years.

Yeah, you've got sleep deprivation thrown in there as well, which adds to it.

And so I'm just really drawn to stuff like that.

Can you win the mental battle?

The mental demons that are telling you to quit pretty much that whole challenge.

I had that voice in my head saying, why the fuck are you doing this?

Honestly, go back to bed.

Stop. Okay.

You've done, you've gone for 24 hours now.

You've proven whatever.

I'll just, we can stop now, you know, and it's just beating that voice.

I'm really drawn to stuff like that.

And you were successful in it.

You were also able to raise a sum of money that was donated to MPan.

The missing persons advocacy network, yeah, run by Lauren O'Keefe.

Yeah, I did it for MPan.

Encouraged donations from our listeners, and our listeners were very kind.

We raised about $6,000.

That's wonderful.

They donated straight to MPan.

I gave updates after every leg just through the social media channels.

And yeah, encouraged donations and people were very kind with their donations.

And, you know, that helped as well.

When you're out there struggling at three o'clock in the morning going on a run.

Yeah, it does.

Doing it for the people.

Yeah, that's right.

It's for a good cause.

You know, Lauren does such fantastic work.

And yeah, I was very happy to be able to help her out with that.

And I've unfortunately couldn't do the challenge this year due to an injury.

Seems like a common thing.

Another one.

Yeah, not as serious as ACL MCL, but yeah, a bit of an Achilles problem.

And what's missing is tied to case file presents.

I did want to focus a little bit on case file presents.

It's very personal to me because through case file presents, Silent Waves,

which is the show that I co-created with Georgina Savage,

was able to reach an audience that I could never have had imagined before that time.

And so I'm eternally grateful that case file presents exists.

And I wanted to know about why you decided to offer this podcasting

platform along with case file.

Case file presents is something that I'd spoken to Mike about for a long time.

You know, probably over a year at that point where we we had this audience

fortunate enough to have such a large audience.

And we thought, can we do other shows?

Because I mentioned earlier how that investigative style was always of interest

as well. And there'd been there were many more true crime podcasts at this point.

Lots of really great investigative style podcasts.

And we thought, could we create something?

Another platform network production company?

What can we do?

And we weren't really sure.

We just sort of had informal discussions back and forth here and there,

like, yeah, we should do something or, you know, whatever.

It was always just sort of like an idea, much like starting the podcast.

It was an idea in the back of my head.

I wasn't really sure how to do it, what to do, what it would look like.

It was just just an idea forming.

And I still remember where I was when I listened to Silent Waves.

I was on a run.

I was looking, I was actively looking for other podcasts, just like,

are there other podcasts that have started?

Like, what is it?

What can we offer? What can we do?

I just want to hear stuff that's been created now.

And I think it was I just came across it randomly on a Google search,

like, latest podcast or really, you know, whatever I typed.

The best podcast to Australia or something, whatever the Google search was.

I doubt it was that, but yes.

No, I think it was something like that, or the best new podcast or something.

And a list came up and sort of Silent Waves.

And I read the little blurb, I was about, OK, I'll listen to this.

Sounds intense.

It did, yeah.

And I was on a run and just listening to it.

And I just remember, I remember having to stop at one point on the run,

just going, wow, this is unbelievable.

Like, this is this is just so powerful and so well done.

I've never heard anything like this before.

You know, just the bravery, the courage you and your family

had making that show and putting that out to the world.

And which we'll get into later, how much that has helped other people.

You know, yeah, it literally stopped me in my tracks on the run.

I just stopped.

I was just like, I had to just stop and take it all in.

And, yeah, so I was blown away by that.

But then came like, well, it's already released.

But there's not really anything I can do to help that.

But I just wanted to get in touch with yourself or Georgina

just to let you know how good it was, how powerful it was

and the courage that you showed.

So I went to the website.

There was a contact email.

Yes, I don't think it said who it was for.

So I don't think I know who I was contacting exactly,

but I just wrote an email and sent that through.

And it was Georgina who wrote back saying thank you.

And that started a conversation.

And I think I might have mentioned something like,

you know, do you have any other shows that you're thinking about doing?

Is there anything else?

You know, just sort of had this idea of case file presents

and Georgina said, well, actually, we're looking for somewhere for Silent Waves

because we were with someone and, you know, that contract has expired.

It was still new.

I think it was six months that you had that contract for when it was released.

So, yeah. Yes.

So that six months was over and you were looking for something.

And then that's when I thought, but then I didn't really know how to approach it.

One, because I still didn't know what the whole case file presents

was going to be exactly.

And then obviously with the content of Silent Waves, you know,

who's this bloke coming in?

What do you want to do?

What about trying to whatever?

But yeah, that started the conversation and I was introduced to you

and we jumped on the call.

Yes. I personally couldn't believe it

because I remember when we started making the podcast, Georgina and I

and we were after people to sponsor the show.

We're going partnership with the show and it was a tough sell.

Like I remember going up to ABC, say, well,

the story is that my dad is a child sex offender

and my cousin was to and this is my story about breaking my silence.

And everyone was like, no, just no.

And I remember we really didn't have high expectations.

We kind of came to the conclusion

that we were just going to do it on our own and see what would happen.

And then we were lucky enough to land partnership with Nearly Media,

who we were with before you.

When we were when we had we're in this partnership,

I remember this one day that we were recording, I don't know,

some after show or seeing if we would do an extra episode.

And the man who was part of the Nearly Media came up to us

and said, oh, apparently Case File has listened to your podcast.

Apparently, there are fans of your podcast at Case File.

We're like, wait, what?

No, impossible, impossible.

And we even thought, should we should we send an email to Case File?

Like, should we should we do that?

And I remember maybe we had sent an email.

I don't think we did.

Or maybe the man said that they would send an email.

He would send an email on our behalf and nothing ever happened from about it.

And I was like, well, of course not.

I mean, it's Case File.

So when you got in contact with us, I literally could not believe it.

I was like, no, no, no, no way.

And then I think that's what's so incredible about Case File Presents.

It gives a platform to people who otherwise would think that there was no chance.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, and that's really what Case File Presents is all about,

is giving people a platform.

When you told me that story initially, I blew out because I was on the other side

going, because it wasn't straight away.

I sent that email, I listened to it.

It's not like I came home and sent an email straight away.

It was a good month.

There might have been longer than that before I actually sent it,

because I just sort of wanted to process it a bit and think about what I wanted to say.

And during that time, I remember there was quite a few times where I was like,

oh, look, I won't send it.

Like they're not going to care.

Some other podcast saying whatever, you know, like they're not going to want to hear from me.

So I was like, I was thinking the opposite to what you were thinking.

Wow. Wow.

See, this is this is why.

And what would you say for budding podcasters that are thinking of making a show

and the opportunity to have their show on Case File Presents, for example?

Let's talk about that.

Really, it's probably all the cliches in the world, but they're all kind of true.

Like you've just got to do it.

Just do it.

That's how Case File Started was just doing it.

You've got to take those steps and keep doing it and realise there's not going to be instant success.

So there is so much work that goes into it.

I mean, for I'm talking out particular style of podcasting, the Case File Presents shows,

you know, yourself creating Silent Waves, what is involved in the limited run series.

It's a lot of time, a lot of work.

There's drafts and second drafts and third drafts and legal checks and back and forth

and cuts and additions and rerecords and post production.

And so true.

There is a lot, a lot of work.

It's not easy.

So just go into it with that in mind.

It is not going to be easy.

But yeah, I know podcasting is a lot different to when I started Case File

and there is a saturation of podcasts now, but there's no reason why you still can't do it.

There's going to be more competition now.

So there's probably a greater emphasis on having really, really good content

that stands out, but can still be done.

And as someone who has done it, what would you say your favourite part about

this career in podcasting is?

Probably just being able to work with so many great people like yourself,

Ricoh, like the Case File team, everyone on the team,

just being so fortunate to put together such a great team of great people.

It's a pleasure.

Like it doesn't feel like work.

It's there is a lot of work involved, but it doesn't feel like work.

And it's just, you know, it's a real privilege.

That's what we're all trying to reach, right?

Is to find something to do that doesn't feel like work.

So it's it's wonderful that you found that.

I think there's another old cliche on that, isn't there?

And you find what you love to do and you won't work a day in your life or whatever it is.

And they're all true. How about that?

Yeah, that's the thing with cliches.

And before we move on from Case File, I do want to say congratulations.

I, as you know, I really admire you and what you've done with Case

File and what you continue to do with Case File.

As you said, it's not easy and it's important to remind ourselves

and everyone else that podcasting isn't just final production.

We don't just pick up a microphone, record and that's that.

No, it can take years at times.

How long did you work on Sol and Waves for?

It was a couple of years.

Two years, two years, exactly.

And I think it's very important.

And the quality, as you were saying, of everything you've done with Case File,

storytelling in a way that doesn't sensationalize is a lot harder to do

than one imagines, you know, because it's very easy to jump into sensationalism

in, especially in true crime storytelling.

So congratulations for that again.

I do want to know, I guess, after having achieved such an incredible

amount with Case File, what do you hope for the future of the show?

Just that we can continue to deliver quality content and continue to help

people continue to give a platform for people for Case File presents and just,

you know, keep getting better, keep working hard, not getting ahead of ourselves,

not getting inflated egos, any of that, which I don't think anyone does on the team.

That's why it's such a great team to work with.

Everyone's down to earth, super chill.

And that's and that's not easy to do when you've got people like Steve Martin

giving you free promotion on talk shows.

Yeah, that was crazy.

Tell me a little bit about that, because that's amazing.

I thought it was a joke initially.

I'm like, please.

And then I just refused to believe it.

I was like, no, this is like some PR campaign.

They've picked out a few top true crime podcasts, and they've

each given the cast member one just to help promote the show or whatever.

I was very cynical just because Steve was such, you know, is such a massive star.

I grew up watching his movies, you know, love Steve Martin.

I just couldn't comprehend it.

But then when I saw his interviews and saw what he was actually saying

and, you know, story about riding the bike and how many episodes

he listened to at this certain point in summer, I'm like, oh,

that's so many episodes we would have had out then.

Steve Martin actually does listen to case file.

Well, yeah, if it was the whole team was like, what?

Yeah, it was crazy.

It was pretty cool.

And that that show to only murders in the building.

Yes, it's a good show, too.

I recommend it.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's wonderful.

And he's not the only celebrity.

I remember one of the writers was telling me a best story about Daniel Radcliffe.

Can you share that one?

Yeah, another one that I didn't believe.

I was like, come on.

And yeah, that I got sent the I don't think there's audio of the new

video. I think it was a written article that he was at some event

and podcasting somehow came up until he rattled off a few of the podcast

of his favorite podcast that he was listening to and case file was one.

And that was another like a mind blow.

What? Really?

Then your Radcliffe listens and yeah, our former team member was in New York

and happened to come across him at a cafe, I believe it was.

And she said, well, you know,

you don't get this opportunity every now and then I'm just going to go for it.

And she just went up to him, so I work for case file, I believe.

And I believe you listen and he's like, yeah, yeah, love case file

and pose for a photo and stuff.

So yeah, it was pretty cool.

There's been quite a few celebrity shout outs and my mind is being blown at all of them.

It was Chrissy Teigen had something on Instagram one day that just blew up our account.

Kate McKinnon was on, I want to say Jimmy Fallon and gave us a shout out on there,

which was huge.

This is all free.

You didn't ask anyone to do this free marketing.

There's also been, you know, bands that I love singers from bands

and musicians that I love in Australia who have said that they listen,

which has been super cool as well.

Music's come up a few times in our conversation and talk to me.

You have a specific type of music that you like.

Talk to me about this.

Tell me three bands that you like.

Please. Only three. Oh, no.

Your top three.

Um, that's hard.

The style of music I listen to is, I do listen, I do appreciate a lot of styles,

but my favorite styles are punk and heavy metal, I'd say.

And so that nineties, the nineties style of punk that exploded with Green Day,

Offspring, that 94, those two albums, Smash and Dookie that created this whole thing.

That's when I was becoming a teenager and that's just that got me hooked

on this whole genre of music, pennywise, no effects, strung out of all those

sort of bands from the nineties.

Like wagon to this day that I still love and many more hundreds of bands.

And then with the metal Metallica, of course, huge when I was younger

and still love them to this day and system of a down, yes, you know,

rage against machine bands like that.

Yeah. And so there's honestly, we'd be here for 15 hours.

You've all went through all the bands and musicians that I love.

But yeah, that's just a little snippet, you know, Parkway Drive,

another metal band that I love.

I don't know. I don't know Parkway Drive personally, but I, as from Australia,

Borum Bay, are they awesome?

Yeah. They say speaking of growth and stuff, that's really interesting

too, because I got into them when they first came out.

And it's just been so interesting seeing their growth.

You know, it's been awesome because when I first saw them,

it was in a local pub that was like 50 people there or whatever

to now headlining stadium tours around the world.

And this epic live show that they put on and just seeing that growth

over the years, it's just been phenomenal, very inspiring.

Yeah, that's the work that they've put in.

Yeah, really cool.

Really cool to follow a band from the grassroots and see them

just become so insanely popular.

Like that show I'm talking about at the pub, I managed to get on the mic briefly.

This looks up the front.

The singers held the mic out for a part of a song and I'm yelling into the microphone.

Would it sound at horrible?

But no. Yeah, super cool.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. So you discovered them.

Now you go see them.

It's a massive stadium show and this epic show

that they put on with fireworks and fire and, you know, and they're not letting you

on stage anymore, unfortunately, unfortunately not.

They're probably a good thing.

That's the best for everyone.

Unfiltered, we'll be back shortly.

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We've covered case file, your professional life, how you got involved in true crime.

But have you ever been personally involved in a crime?

When I was 17, I was, well, throughout my teenage years,

I worked at a popular fast food chain, global chain.

And there was one particular night.

I was 17 at the time.

I was doing the wash up shift, which is the worst shift of all time.

It sucked.

Washing out.

Literally washing dishes.

Literally washing dishes, yeah.

And I remember this particular night well to get days off at this restaurant,

to request the days off because you had things coming up.

You had to go through a manager.

You had to see the manager on shift.

And I remember getting lucky this night.

There was a really good manager on who was very approachable, friendly.

And so I thought, beauty, tonight's the night I'll go in and put those dates in.

And I remember, I remember the night so well.

There was multiple times where I was like, OK, I'll go see the manager now with those dates.

But then something would come up.

Someone else would come in with more stuff or get interrupted some of the way.

Or, oh, no, actually, I'll just finish this little thing and then I'll go.

And this has happened over the course of however long.

Then finally, there was a break.

I was like, now is the time I went to the manager's office.

So I had my back turned.

I was standing at the door talking to the manager, unavailable dates.

Oh, yeah, sure, sure.

Pulled the book down.

And I felt something in my back, something hitting my back multiple times.

Someone saying, get down, get down, get down.

Wow.

I thought it was a joke of a fellow work colleague carrying on or doing something.

I remember turning around thinking, what the fuck are you doing, you idiot?

And there was a gun pointed at me, a handgun.

And yeah, that's when I realized this was very much not a joke.

Get down, get down.

Absolutely. Got straight down.

Parried my head, did as I was told.

He ordered the manager to open the safe and fill his bag with the cash, which he did.

She did a great job.

Was calm, held her nerve, did as she was told, followed all of his instructions.

And yeah, the one thing I remember about it is he was so calm.

He was a seasoned crook.

This was definitely not some, you know, opportune looking for a quick fix.

He was just calm and in control.

There was no yelling, no screaming, no losing his tempo.

You get down, you open the safe, fill the bag, come on, hurry up, hurry up.

You know, talking like this.

Wow. Super cool.

Control, in control, completely.

Very in control.

And I was just being the manager in the office and I was absolutely shitting myself.

Had my, was on my knees on the ground, head buried, like, oh, please don't shoot me.

Fuck, I'm going to die.

It was very scary.

And then once the bag was filled, he said, right, count to 100.

Don't move. It was gone.

Just like that happened.

So quick like that.

Yeah. And I think I counted to about 1,856 or something

just to make sure that he was really, really gone.

I think it was the manager.

Actually, he's like, you can get up now.

He's gone.

So yeah, that was quite scary.

And I was obviously still in shock because I just got up and went back

around to the wash-up room and kept working, just not quite processing what had just happened.

Really? You didn't go home after that?

No, no, I kept working until obviously they called the police

and then the store manager and the higher ups.

And I think it was the store manager came in and came around and saw me.

He goes, what are you doing?

Stop. Relax.

Yes.

We'll feed.

Because there was just my response to it.

I was just, you know, what to do? I was in shock.

But yeah, the police came, went to the police station, gave a statement.

One week later, they got hit again.

They think it was the same guy.

He went back.

I believe he got 10 grand cash to a different location or the same location?

No, same restaurant.

Yeah, I wasn't on shift when he came back a week later.

But when I was there, I believe it was 10 grand.

He got out of the safe.

Quite a lot of cash.

And I think it was a similar number the week later when he went back and got it again.

It was morning.

It was nighttime when I was there.

And then a week later, he went morning, early morning.

But they think it was the same guy. Never caught him.

And was he, you didn't mention, was he using a balaclava?

Was his face covered?

There was something going on, but I really don't remember.

I just remember seeing the barrel of this gun and that's all.

Wow.

That's where my memory is.

I know there was something going on with his face.

I don't think it wasn't a balaclava, but it was like it was maybe a hood or something pulled over or whatever it was.

Yeah, I just I'd be interested to read my statement, actually,

because, you know, what exactly I detailed back then, because it's hard now.

So nearly however long ago, it was several decades later, trying to think back.

But I do remember that gun.

Yeah.

Yeah. And guns are terrifying.

I mean, living in Brazil, you know, I'm exposed to so many more guns than I then then in Australia.

Sometimes you're you're going past a police car, for example, and they've just got their

their rifles sticking out of the the window.

Just a gun in your face, you know, things like that.

But seeing a gun is super, super terrifying.

You know, as in like being confronted with a gun on that end being hidden.

It was obviously the gun that he was poking in my back.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, turning around and seeing it.

Just fuck.

Yeah, very scary.

That's that's your near death experience, basically.

You've you've been touched on the back with the barrel of a gun at the time.

Yeah, I thought because, you know, like you're on the ground,

the head buried hands listening to the money being put in the safe,

just thinking like, is it going to shoot us?

Like, what's going to happen here?

No, it's literally like a movie.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

Now that we are getting more personal,

I was going to say that the world knows you as KC or simply anonymous,

but we have had many conversations about the possibility

of you sharing parts of your personal story.

I was thinking we could start with the health scare

that you suffered around this time last year during the pandemic.

What can you tell me about that?

What happened?

Yeah, well, speaking of near death experiences, that that was one.

Well, it wasn't really, but it felt like one.

So people may remember last year, twenty twenty one, we had to take,

I believe it was four weeks off, five weeks off, something like that.

Unexpectedly, I think a message may have gone out about my health or something.

So I had just finished recording an episode.

I don't remember what episode it was, but I just finished recording.

And after recording an episode, I like to go to the gym.

So that's where I was headed.

I had to call into the post office first.

So I remember driving to the post office thinking.

Actually, I don't know if I should go to the gym today.

I was just not quite feeling it.

But then, you know, you start thinking, come on, don't be soft.

David Goggins videos start going through your head.

Yeah, we're all right, you know.

So I got remember pulling up at the post office car park

and getting the package I had the post and so vivid the memory.

Walking to the post office, I remember thinking.

Well, why the fuck is this package so heavy?

It wasn't a heavy package at all.

So this feels so heavy.

Well, what's going on?

I just remember and then standing in the post office.

I just remember feeling a bit scattered.

Like this heavy package that wasn't heavy.

And now I did what I had to do at the post office.

Walk back to the car.

Still was thinking maybe I should just drive home.

I started driving towards the gym, but it was still in my head.

Like, no, I don't think I should go today.

But before I had the chance to turn around, I just I had to pull over.

Because I just felt something.

It's hard to describe the feeling, but I just had to pull over.

That I knew something was horribly wrong.

I managed to pull over, got out of the car, struggled.

I couldn't really walk or somehow stumbled to the gutter.

And I was just like, oh, fuck.

The my left arm was just tingling pins and needles.

I had this massive tightness in my chest.

I couldn't stand. I couldn't talk.

I was just I remember sitting in the gutter

looking at all these cars going by, because you're a relatively busy road.

And just thinking, wow, what a fucking place to die in a gutter on this road.

Wow, that's what you were thinking.

I thought I was gone.

Yeah, I thought I was gone. I thought it was a heart attack.

So it was on your left side that the tingling left arm, left arm tingles,

this massive tightness in my chest.

And just remember looking at these cars just thinking about help, like someone help.

But it's not like I was just on the gutter.

It would take cars driving by.

I just would have looked like someone sitting in the gutter, you know,

look, but I just remember thinking, you know, there's no reason for anyone to really stop.

So I'm certainly not being critical of that.

But just I just remember thinking like a fuck, something like help, help.

I'm dying. Wow.

And I managed to get my phone out and luckily

someone was able to come and pick me up.

And I don't exactly remember what I got in the car or something.

I don't know if I explained what was happening.

I've been told later that she thought I was having a heart attack.

Like there was a little bit of worry there.

She goes straight to a medical center.

I've gone in.

A doctor has looked at me.

They've called an ambulance.

They hooked me up to an ECG machine.

And I remember the AMBO looking at me, the paramedic saying,

yeah, yeah, this is you are having a heart attack.

Wow. And I remember thinking, well, that's at least I know, OK,

that's relief that there's paramedics here.

There's a doctor like that.

I'm not dead yet.

This has been going on for a while.

It's hopefully I'm going to survive this because I still wasn't sure at that stage

and they've injected me with something and whatever they've done.

They've gone to work on me and then a call.

I think the ECG must go to a heart specialist at the hospital

and they've called the paramedic or vice versa and said, no, it's not a heart attack.

It's like a false positive thing or something.

So then that's been relayed to me.

Actually, the specialist reckons it's not a heart attack.

It's there's something else going on.

I don't know. It's still a little bit blurry.

But I ended up going to hospital and was there for quite a few hours.

They ran all the tests and did blood tests.

And all the tests showed that it wasn't a heart attack.

They never really explained what it could be.

So I'm just like, well, OK, so I'll just go home now.

So it still doesn't feel right.

But it was nowhere near as bad as what it was when I had to pull over.

But I remember telling the doctors like, what like this?

What do I do?

Like, I still feel not quite good here.

But they said, go home and come back, basically, if I have to.

So I went home, slept the night, woke up the next morning thinking,

I think I'm better.

I think I feel OK.

Got in the car, pain had subsided by then.

It was still there, but not as strong.

There was still like a tightness in my chest.

There was still something going on in my left arm, but it just wasn't.

How it was when I had to pull over the car like where I couldn't stand.

And like my head, the world was spinning.

And so I remember getting in the car

and driving, I just had to quickly drive down the street.

I didn't even get around the corner.

It started again.

Exactly what happened the day before, just like the world started spinning again.

It started to get more intense.

Like, oh, fuck, I had to pull over again, back to hospital

and back through all the tests again.

And again, got told, look, it's not a heart attack.

Like, it's not all the tests are fine.

But so you're good to go home.

But then I was booked in to see a heart specialist just in case.

So over the next few days or weeks, whatever it was when and did,

there was three tests I had to do with the specialist.

So it was I forget what they were called now,

but I was hooked up to a machine for 24 hours.

When they checked the heart rhythm,

then I had to go in and get on a treadmill and go for as

as long as possible on the treadmill, whatever they did there.

And they monitor the heart and there was something else I had to do.

And all the tests will make you a perfectly fine.

Your heart is fine. There is nothing wrong.

And was that confusing for you?

Very, very confusing, because I've always prided myself on being,

you know, healthy, into fitness or all that stuff, eat.

I certainly don't eat perfect, but I do try and look at what I eat most of the time.

So eat relatively healthy most of the time.

And it's just very confusing about how am I?

And then I started thinking about my stepdad died of a heart attack.

Suddenly he was only pretty young, early fifties.

Obviously, there's not a blood connection there,

a hereditary connection with it being a stepparent, but.

Just started to think, well,

you know, trying to make sense of it.

Is there something like as I lived with my stepdad since I was very young?

So like, is there some, you know, start to think all these theories of your mind goes through?

Like, well, is there something that we've been exposed to?

Like, what's, you know, what's going on?

I'm going to drop dead any second, basically, because I remember hearing.

My stepdad went through a few different things.

I don't know if you ever experienced anything like that,

but where he went, he was seeing a heart specialist before he died

just because of the different things that were going on.

They were telling him the same thing. There's nothing wrong.

You're perfectly healthy, but then he died suddenly one day.

So. So you had that on the back of your mind as well.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm thinking, well, pretty much any second, I'm just going to drop dead.

And I remember just that's just how it was living life for a couple of weeks there,

just thinking, wow.

Yeah, but it wasn't until.

The test came back over the next couple of weeks and then I was, yeah.

Well, I obviously haven't dropped dead yet.

Yeah. So that's a plus.

But also that experience of the tightness of the chest

and the arm has gone away in that time.

And that's something that I had experienced for a very long time in my life

for pretty much as long as I can remember, not certainly not to that extent.

Yes. Obviously that sort of all came to a head in that moment

when I had to go to hospital, but at various points for as long as I can remember

in my life, I've had that sort of pins and needily and tingle

and shooting up the arm and really tied in the chest.

And, you know, I just put it down to stress at work.

Never I had been to the doctor a few times over

probably the last 10, 15 years, you know, like maybe two or three times.

So it got to the point where I'm like, I'm just going to go to the medical center.

And I remember feeling like the world's biggest hypochondriac

because it's hard to explain that you're seeing a doctor.

They're doing all the tests.

But what's your problem with your blood pressure is good.

This your healthy fit, whatever.

Like, yeah, but I've got like these tingles and this tightness.

And, you know, so.

Yeah, that happened a few times.

And so I remember there were certain periods in my life where I thought,

fucking am I going to drop dead at some point?

Is this the early signs of a heart attack?

Well, what what is going on?

But then it would go away after a couple of days, wouldn't be strong.

Then I'd be at work or something to be busy and stressed and like, OK,

let's come back a little bit and you know, it's good to, you know,

that's what just get back to the gym fitness.

Good, you know, we'll we'll eat healthily.

We'll eat our way out of this healthy food and fitness

and we'll be right type of thing.

Yeah, eat and exercise your way out of it.

It's funny, though, because I know when you speak about the tingling

in the left arm and this pressure on the left side of your chest,

I know exactly what you're talking about.

And at at certain points, I've questioned through the years.

I'm like, is this a heart attack?

Because if you Google it, it is, you know, it's like, oh, God, yeah, I'm dying.

And for me, it would get so bad at some points,

not to the point where I would feel like I was dying,

but where I couldn't lie on my left side, for example,

like it would stop me from lying on my left side

because I would feel like that the pressure would become unbearable.

And obviously, for me, the root of that was traced back to my childhood.

And I was wondering for you if you if it ignited any memories

of your childhood or anything like that.

Yeah, definitely.

I that blew my mind when you told me that

when we were having that conversation that you experienced that same thing.

Because I for so many years was just putting it down to work, stress,

something, some other problem.

But yes, when I found that out from you, it's.

So. So, yeah, as you mentioned, that all.

I don't I don't.

I mustn't have been during a lockdown because I was going to the gym,

but it might have been in between.

I think it was between the lockdowns.

I think it was between the first lockdown we had in Australia and the second one.

And I did struggle a bit during that lockdown.

That's when sort of went to some dark places.

Again, I mentioned after the injury that put me to a bit of a dark place.

And the lockdown, not like probably most of the world put me to a bit of a dark place as well.

And just some things from the past really started coming back stuff

that I repressed and just buried in for so many years.

And it just started coming back to lockdown for whatever reason,

the heightened anxiety, whatever it was really started to bring it back.

And essentially what happened is.

When I was 10, I did experience some abuse as a child, sexual abuse

from an older kid, essentially.

So just if any, I'm not sure he's going to listen to this event.

If anyone who knows me who's listening, it was not done by a family member.

Or anyone who you would know if you're listening, just to put that at rest straight away.

Just so their minds aren't wondering.

But it was essentially an older neighborhood kid who a lot of people looked up to

and, you know, as a cool kid, he does, you know, this and that and has a cool black

and is a bit older, but he's hanging around with the younger kids.

So but still, you know, a kid or a young person himself, certainly not an adult.

And I mentioned the silent waves and how that stopped me in my tracks.

It was what was really the big part of that was the grooming.

Because although, although our experiences were very different, the grooming,

the grooming is what really stood out.

And that's when it just, I look back at it now, as I said,

I've buried it for so many years and just tried to justify it through.

He was a kid too.

So it's not important, you know, it doesn't count.

It's just like whatever.

So just try and laugh it off and whatever experimentation and I don't know.

But when I look about when I when I actually when it came out or when it came back

to the surface for whatever reason during lockdown after repressing it for so many

years was the grooming and just thinking back about how it all happened.

What I was told, because it's still very clear, even though I was 10,

I still remember it very well, you know, all the bullshit that you were told

and the bribes that you were offered and the stories you're being spun about.

Well, what do you think that your dad and his friends do when they have barbecues

and they hang out after they play golf?

And so this is just what happens.

But don't tell anyone.

Obviously, that should have been a massive alarm bell.

But, you know, really thinking about it when you're 10.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't you don't know to think about when you're 10 to be clear as well.

Grooming being the web of manipulation, the process of manipulation.

If anyone doesn't know the word grooming would be there.

Yeah, yeah, the process of manipulation.

Remember how it started, you know, offering this, that lollies, footy cards,

whatever it was into being told those lies about this is what your dad does.

This is what your dad's friends do.

This is just what people do, you know, so do it.

Which is sad in itself, because that's kind of kind of gives us the impression

that the kid, the older kid that was doing it to you, perhaps his father was

doing it to him.

Yeah, or someone or someone.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's interesting that he said this is what your dad does, I guess.

I think he actually never thought about that until just now.

Whether that is a insight into where he may have experienced abuse,

because likely he did, right?

I mean, he was in high school at the time.

I was in primary school, but there's still enough of an age gap.

I guess looking at it and thinking, yeah, OK, this is fucked up.

What happened?

But I also tried to justify it all these years just by saying, well,

that's not really, you know, it's not.

And it's kind of like.

You tried to reduce what it was.

Yeah, yeah, massively tried.

It's no, it's not abuse or not a victim.

And I remember, you know, that happened a few times

and then we drifted apart or whatever.

I think now he moved away and never spoke to him.

And then when I got into high school, myself, obviously,

that's when you get into high school.

It's when you start being introduced to a few more things in the world.

It might be different now with the access kids have to the internet.

But certainly back then it was.

Like, oh, there's this whole new world of stuff and information

that you're being told in high school

and coming into your early teenage years at that point.

And when.

Obviously.

You know, things were brought up and then.

You learn about different stuff and then people.

It does make me think back of how homophobic society was back then.

Certainly come a long way.

But the.

The gay jokes and the gay talk back then and you're at this and you're at that.

And when I got to high school, I guess is when I realized.

How fucked up that was, what happened?

And I'm like, oh, fuck.

And it just wasn't straight away.

So whatever it was in towards the end of your seven in your eight,

I don't know, whenever it was, I just it just it just killed me.

It just.

Completely fucked me.

And how did it?

How did it impact your interactions with people from that point?

Oh, it was bad.

Like, I guess on the outside, there was nothing really going on on the outside.

I wasn't.

Acting out or or doing anything like that, really, or being violent or anything.

Um, actually, thinking back, I mean, there were there were a few incidents where I said

some regretful things could probably be a bit of a dick at times or whatever.

Um, yeah, again, very young.

We were only 12 at this point, just coming into high school, just the odd incident here

and there, but then very quickly, just kind of withdrew.

You were quite shy, no?

It was all internal.

It was all internal.

It was just this fucking war and rage and emotions and stuff and craziness going on

inside, but on the outside, I was just like.

Quiet mute calm.

Like I was very intro, very introverted.

Um, I remember that from that's for sure.

The I did struggle to talk to people, giving a talk in front of a class or

something, fucking forget it.

It's just because I still remember the thoughts back then was like, people are

going to know, people are going to find out.

Fuck, look, if someone looked at me, a teacher, I'll be like, fuck this teacher knows what

happened.

I'm going to get expelled.

I'm going to get, like I went to a Catholic school, wasn't like over the top

strict, but we're still strict enough back then, I suppose.

Like fuck, you know, go to hell and get kicked out of this school and psychological warfare.

Excommunicated from the world or whatever crazy thoughts I was thinking back then.

I don't know, but it was just like, it was just this paranoia, this anxiety of

that everyone knew just other kids.

Like I couldn't could bail.

I could function.

I was, I was functioning.

I could do my schoolwork and stuff, but I also wasn't in a way.

It's kind of hard to explain.

No, I get it.

I get it.

You, you are functioning because you're still functioning in society, but like

internally it's psychological warfare.

As you're explaining, it really is.

And I am wondering, cause I know for me, when it happened to me, I, I specifically

remember walking on the foreshore and promising myself like repeatedly for an

entire walk that no one would ever find out.

No one would, no one could ever find out that I would hold this secret for the rest

of my life.

Just that was, that was this decision I made at 14 years old.

Like such a serious decision.

Did you make a similar decision as a teenager or as a kid?

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

Like just remember being there, like just being that a paranoid of anyone ever

finding out of what happened just because of the, the shame.

It's almost indescribable, the power of, of that shame and how much it affects your

life and just, just couldn't, like just, and that's when I just really started

trying to work on the repressing of it.

Like this didn't happen.

Like just, just didn't happen.

Just, you know, but I always kind of knew it was there in the back of my mind as well.

And yeah, so I struggled with that for quite a while, I would say.

So when school finished, that was, I remember that being a big relief.

Like, I made it out of there.

No one found out I can leave that part of me behind.

And just move on and being that old and go out into the world.

And it was just like this, this fear at school, this fear of shame,

is just such powerful emotions.

And there's already enough going on at high school anyway, when you're a teenager.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's where music first became a big outlet for me.

That's what I wanted to know.

Yeah.

So that's when I first started getting into the bands that are to this day love

and will forever love and playing the guitar as well myself.

And, you know, never played in bands or anything.

Oh, they had a few sort of muck around sessions with friends in the garage or whatever,

but never played in a serious band.

But it was just such a, such a release, like a, you know, a safe haven in a way.

Playing the guitar, listening to those bands as music that was so influential at that time.

Nirvana was one.

Nirvana Metallica, Green Day Offspring, Blink One Eight Two,

all these bands that were coming out there that I just fell in love with this style of music.

Yeah, that was huge.

So music was something that helped you get through.

What about exercise?

Not so much back then, no.

I mean, I played sport as a kid, football and cricket.

I remember I was always been an average football player,

but it was probably OK at cricket for a period of time.

But I remember that really affected the sport as well.

And just the psyche, just the stuff that was going through.

I went from being OK, doing OK to just being fucking useless, basically.

Yeah. I just, mentally, I was not there.

I just couldn't just with sport and everything.

It just had such a great effect.

And some people, I guess, I've read and heard about stories where they use that

and they're able to channel that into the sporting endeavours and other endeavours

and stuff for me. It was the opposite. I just went to water, basically.

Yeah. Yeah. So I stopped playing football pretty young, actually,

and picked it back up later in life, sort of when I got into

early 20s, I think I started playing again for a bit,

but kept playing cricket, but was just, yeah.

It was just, again, never, it was never at a high level,

but I guess just it was something that I had shown a little bit of glimpse

of glimpses of promising at times and asked to try out for rep squads and stuff.

And it was at that time when it was just really starting to just not.

This is I can't function.

And it's it's interesting that you say that I've also read

where people are able to channel their emotions into like sport as a medium.

For me, the same thing happened with ballet.

I used to dance so much and when everything got too much,

I explain myself as a bucket that started spilling over, you know,

it was like way too full and everything started spilling over.

And ballet was the first thing I cut.

I couldn't be there anymore in that environment.

It's because I couldn't I couldn't concentrate.

My mom was everywhere, you know, I couldn't focus anymore on that.

So it's interesting that you say that.

And only recently that I started picking up dance again.

As you said, you got back in it after a break.

Yes. Yeah.

Like it's really interesting the different ways that people can channel it

and approach it, how we've both experienced the similar thing.

We're not being able to function, but other people just use it to drive them

to success essentially all the way to the to the top of various fields, sporting and others.

Um, like there's no right or wrong way that everyone experiences things differently.

It's so true.

So once you'd left school, you got through that.

OK, you got through school.

No one year, great secrets kept.

Now you're out of school.

What happens?

So continued working at that fast food chain after school and just was

I came from sort of like a there was a strict upbringing, I suppose,

not strict in the sense of like abusive, but if it's pretty strict,

like in terms of schoolwork and career.

And this is all so important.

You need to have your life mapped out and know what you're going to do

by the time you're 17 or whatever by the time you finish school.

So yeah, there's kind of like, well, you're going to uni.

What are you doing?

Doing this, that the defense force or whatever else?

And, you know, I don't know.

So I went with the career at that point.

I went through the studies and then into the career and.

Yeah, I just did that basically, as I said, went back to sport

in during those early 20 years, you know, just socially, not any

just community sport, not at any high level, but that was good.

And did get into a bit of hard, hard binge drinking.

At that time.

So I guess after high school, that was like the coping mechanism in a way

just to go hard on the drink.

Not every day.

So certainly, like, you know, not what if you think

alcoholic every day always, certainly wasn't that, but it was just like

when I went out or when I had, there was no such thing as a few quiet drinks.

Yeah, and so I guess that that was a bit of a battle for a couple of years.

I'm not battle woman.

I don't think it ever really affected my life too negatively, but obviously

it's not a healthy habit just to completely write yourself off as much as possible.

Although again, thinking back, you know, while there wasn't violent criminal acts,

there were instances of just, you know, misbehaving a bit, just being a bit of a

dick, again, saying some pretty regretful things to some people.

Cost a couple of friendships just due to stuff said while blind drunk.

Probably cost a relationship as well, not from really anything

or particularly said or did, but just the behavior, I guess.

And again, like, not criminal, no violent, not abusive, but just.

It's not healthy that heavy binge drinking, writing yourself off like that.

But during those years, when you were experiencing, when you were drinking

and that became the outlet, were the memories still haunting or were you

able to block it out? Less, less so at that time.

But it was still obviously drinking to forget that as well, because they'd still come up.

They would still come up and like, fuck, what?

How did I let that happen?

How did that happen?

Like what? Still there, just not as strong as they were.

As the years went on, but still obviously went back to that

guilt and shame and feeling sorry for yourself and all that stuff.

And just like, well, let's get fucked up.

Never dabbled in drugs.

It was always just alcohol.

So that's a positive, I guess.

Not that I'm anti drugs, but I know.

Like that wasn't healthy, but I was doing with alcohol.

So it would have definitely been good.

Had, you know, certain circumstances, presented themselves or, you know,

you zig when you should as act in life and that gets presented or whatever

that could have got pretty ugly, I think.

But it did work for you for a certain point of time to be able to continue

to function, as you said, and continue to present yourself in everyday life.

That was what you knew to do at the time.

When did that change into something else?

I probably still would have been around that time in that sort of early 20s

period where I really started to get into the fitness side of things,

even though the binge drinking was still strong.

I was also starting to channel it into the fitness.

And it's a balance.

Why not do both?

You know, you write yourself off to four o'clock in the morning

and get up and go to the gym.

Why not? At five.

Not quite.

But yeah, so that's sort of really got heavily into the fitness side as well.

And I found that to be a very positive

outlet, much more positive than binge drinking, obviously.

But with the binge drinking stuff, it was like I was still working full time.

And, you know, when work was work, there was no drinking of, you know,

work with girls as only days off and stuff.

But yeah, the fitness was a big, big thing for me for sure.

Round, then probably around

maybe that mid 20s period.

I would have been a little bit later, actually discovered a CrossFit.

Oh, you became a CrossFit Colt member.

Yes, very much so.

I was very, very into CrossFit.

Again, not particularly good at it, but just was just that outlet

because it was so intense, the exercise.

And, you know, when I really started getting hooked into it,

I was training multiple times a day

and my life revolved around work and working out, basically.

Not very smartly, either, because because I loved it so much

and was just training so hard.

And after the training, you feel so good

and you're not thinking about any of these other things

that you're trying to run away from in your life.

I just wanted to keep doing it.

So I trained two times a day, three times a day, you know, whatever.

I just tried, looked up like elite programs

that like top level athletes were following

and trying to sort of keep up with that.

Doing absolutely zero recovery work, which is there.

Yeah, yeah, not looking after my body at all.

Just train, train, train and then do like a five second

hammy stretch at the end, like, yep, it's good.

Yeah, great, train again.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, that became my outlet.

But and so it's I really resonate with everything that you're saying.

I'm interested in understanding

what made you break the promise to yourself

that you made to not tell anyone and tell someone.

That was that had to do with whatever came

as life went on, it became less and less.

And eventually sort of got to the point where I wasn't.

I hadn't really thought about it.

I never really thought about it anymore.

What happened? Just like, OK, done.

You know, at least not at the forefront of my mind.

It was obviously buried.

I'd successfully buried it.

I guess when you had buried it,

were you telling yourself that you had overcome it?

Yeah. OK.

Yeah, I thought it's done, whereover it is buried, it's gone.

It was just kids being kids.

It wasn't abusive. It's fine.

Let's just move on.

We're done. We're done.

But I guess I was still thinking about it

because I was still trying to justify it.

But I thought I had overcome it.

But then for whatever reason,

I still remember the lockdown, just that increased anxiety,

the anxiety levels of everyone, what's going on.

It just came

flooding back out of nowhere.

It just hit me massively out of nowhere.

Yeah.

And then that was a struggle.

That was really a struggle.

And I'm trying to deal with that.

Then I did mention the tingles in the chest pain

that I experienced constantly throughout my life.

On and off, that was obviously.

I think that's what happened that day in the car,

that unaddressed childhood trauma just went bang.

And I'll forget when it was exactly,

but it was one of the doctors or the specialist

when they said that wasn't a hard attack, you're healthy.

The idea of a panic attack was like that, like you had a panic.

Maybe you've had a panic attack or something.

OK.

And I remember thinking,

well, I'm not like,

there's not really anything going on in my life that would cause that.

It's not a particularly stressful time.

You know, I just record an episode.

It was fine. It went good.

I was going to the gym.

I was going to do a bit more work after the gym.

Like, how could it be a panic attack?

But then I just came to the realisation

that I had to tell someone about this

because of the way it just came just whacked me back in the face.

All those memories.

So just I did tell someone for the first time.

So what are we talking about?

25 plus years after it happened.

Yeah, wow.

You were the second person that I told.

I remember calling you up under the guise of, hey, Rickle,

like, so I've got this friend and this is what happened to them.

This friend wants to know.

I think you probably saw it straight through that.

Yeah, I remember. I remember saying,

I think you should ask your friends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wasn't fooling you.

And that's when I just came out.

And then I remember, yeah, because I remember saying,

so do you reckon like my friend like this age gap?

But it probably probably wasn't good.

Was it? But then I told you and.

It's a very powerful moment.

Yeah, it was. It really was.

And I never would have done that, Rickle, without Silent Laves.

Really? Wow.

That's the the truth of the matter.

I'm so humbled hearing your courage and the power of that.

And I know you've had many emails telling you similar stories

about how it's helped people have listened to that.

And, yeah, I just found it so powerful and just.

And the one thing and this is how I found out

that you were experiencing those tingles

and the tightness of the chest.

The one thing that's come out since I have told some people

and apparently I'm telling a lot more people in there.

But that that tightness of the chest and the tingles

I haven't had it since.

Wow. Wow.

I do want to talk more about that.

But I remember when you told me about your experience

for the first time that I thought I was so humbled.

But also I was like, wow, Casey is my audience.

I made this story for Casey as well as all the other people

who had been through something similar.

Because I always say we have our personal stories,

but there's a collective narrative that exists.

And that's why when you talk about the tingling in your arm

and the pressure on your chest, I resonate.

That's why I understand we understand each other in a way

that you can only understand if you've been through something similar.

And that's a lot of people.

It's not just you and I, as you were saying.

And I think your courage now to share parts of your story

in the hope of helping others is something so admirable.

And I want to say about the time we were together in London earlier this year.

And I experienced this moment that I remember for the rest of my life

because it's the founder of Casefile, like Casey himself,

sat the team down at a restaurant.

Some members of the team, that is.

Not everyone was there.

People, there were Jess, one of the writers, Mike, Paulina.

Paulina, yeah.

You and I, exactly.

And you actually shared that story to us as the boss,

the founder of the company talking in a way to people who work for you

in a way that was so open and honest and raw.

You know, it was like completely raw.

And I think at that moment, we all respected you so much more

for what it was that you did.

And I wanted to know about why you've decided to share this part of your story.

Yeah, I think it's just another part in the process for myself as well.

It being able to just be open about it.

And because I know how much you sharing your story

and your family sharing this story helped me.

And that's what I thought.

Well, when I was talking, when we're talking about this in London,

I thought, well, if I can do that for someone else, I'm happy to do that.

Essentially, it was what it boils down to.

And that conversation in London, that actually, as you know,

that stems from a had somewhat of another panic attack

leading up to that London trip where it all came back again.

And I thought, you know, because you think there's different stages of a journey.

You think, OK, I've told a few people now I'm fixed, not quite.

It sort of came at all, came back again.

I was having a bad time for a couple of days there.

And I went to the airport and turned around and went home.

Yes, you did.

As you know, I was like, no, I'm just not blamed it on.

A lot of things.

There were a few, there were a few things.

People were asking me, obviously, friends and stuff.

What's going on with you?

Oh, it's just the covid, covid issue, such a low hanging fruit that you can blame it on.

Yes, I didn't get a covid test and, you know, stuff up or whatever.

Come up with some cover story.

But yeah, that was, again, just such a.

I don't know where it comes from.

I don't know what happens.

Just such a dark, dark time.

And I've never been the world's biggest fan of flying, I suppose,

but it's never stopped me.

Like, I'm always happy to book a flight and go somewhere, go on holidays.

But for whatever reason, I was just all I was thinking about was death

and these planes going down.

But it wasn't just like surface level, like, oh, the plane doesn't crash.

So it was just like this, all these darkness that was come back again.

It's hard to, so hard to put into words.

And I remember going to see someone speaking and it was, they made me realize,

like, you're holding on to this.

Let's not forget planes, you're holding on to this.

Yes, you've now started to address it.

But you may be understand you've held on to this for like 25 plus years.

That's not a case of you've told a few people and now you're fixed.

You've got a lot of work to do.

And then she explained different things and just how what I was experiencing

was all linked back to that and what happened at childhood.

And yeah, very good, very powerful discussion.

And just to open my eyes a little bit to

there's still a ways to go on the journey.

And you hopped on a flight the next day after that conversation,

was it, arrived in London? No one understood anything.

Yeah, yeah, like, what the fuck is going on?

Yeah, that's I was just such a powerful conversation

that I had now with the person, you know, who I'm talking to.

Yeah, they just really were able to

make me see it for what it was,

that what I was essentially having another panic attack,

but without the symptoms of that tingles and the tightness of the chest.

Yes, exactly.

And what about the talk, the self-talk in your mind?

What I'm particularly interested in for these type,

when we talk about abuse is the we you've mentioned shame a lot.

But I'm wondering about the rage, the anger, how you what you think about

how would justice be served?

What do you think about that?

Like, does that does that take up any of your thoughts or not?

Yeah, it has, for sure, over the years, because you envision just knocking

on someone's door and just fucking building the fuck out of them or trying to.

Anyway, you know, starts rolling and see what happens type of thing.

Yeah, they might get the better of you, but I just trying to inflict

some physical pain on the person.

I'm sure that's probably a normal reaction that a lot of people have.

I shouldn't say that.

There's no such thing as a normal reaction, but that's just a reaction that I had.

Thoughts that I had and then they would come and go

with various times in my life, like maybe if I do that, they'll make it all better.

And, you know, obviously, it's not going to achieve anything.

But I have had those thoughts for sure.

And where where are your thoughts at now?

Are they not there?

Are they focused on yourself and your healing or where you are?

I'm much focused on myself and my healing.

I haven't thought about it.

I haven't had those thoughts for a while since pretty much talking to you

and talking to other people and trying to work through it and address it and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah, I realize that it's myself that I need to work on.

Not. Yes.

You know, and at the end of the day, as we said,

it's obvious what happened to me happened to the person who did it to me.

We did. We did mention that.

I mean, it's obviously we can't confirm it, but these cycles usually don't start

when we're introduced to them, I would say. Yeah.

It's is really interesting when we talk about

you mentioned about doing something and then thinking that, OK,

that's the end of it, and that's the end of it, and then that's the end of it.

And then you can't get on a plane and you're like, OK, but now I can get on a plane.

So that's the end of it.

And I think it's important to remember it's kind of lifelong work.

We kind of got to keep working through it in different ways over the course of our life.

And part of that I'm a strong proponent for the power of conversation to do that

and to contribute to what we were talking about this collective narrative

of similar experiences in relation to abuse.

On that note, I would like to thank you once again for being so generously

sharing that part of your story with us, Casey.

And I hope that it's able to reach who it needs to.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Raquel, and thank you for sharing your story

and thank you to your family.

There's, I mean, I think it's very important as well.

And that's why I couldn't believe when you said that you were pitching

silent waves to other places prior where they said, no.

As soon as I heard silent waves, I was like, this is very powerful

and people need to hear this.

And how do we make that happen as many people as possible?

Very important.

Well, thank you so, so much.

As you know, I am the biggest fan, the biggest fan.

It's mutual.

Thanks for joining us for the first ever episode of Unfiltered.

If you'd like to know more about Case File or the other podcast Casey is working on,

check out CaseFilePresents.com.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.