de volksjury: Aflevering 119 - Latrese Curtis

Welcome to episode 119 of The Volksgerie.

We are daughter Clara and Silke.

Lady Gaga and Beyoncé contacted us and they said we're not going to do that anymore.

No, if we do a podcast, we'll do it ourselves.

Step away from this scene.

So we're listening to the Queens.

Absolutely.

Sava?

Yes.

We're both a bit tired, but so happy, tired.

We had a great weekend.

We loved it when we were there.

That's the best.

Congratulations, Jonathan and Frère, on your anniversary.

Yes.

It was a great day, a great party.

We danced well.

We ate well.

Everything was great.

Everything was great.

Yes, it was cool.

Yes, it was great.

I think it was the first time we were at a wedding party together.

Yes, yes, yes.

And we were still sitting next to each other.

We just couldn't do it without each other.

I think we really became like the most twins.

Yes, maybe we can just go for surgery.

The pinkies after each other.

The pinkies.

Yes, what would you choose?

I don't know.

I think that's still the best option to guarantee the freedom of movement.

And that step, when you're sitting next to each other,

you really have to be in time.

And I'm already someone who's easy to fall in love with.

Oh, me too.

So that's not a problem anymore.

I want so much.

Yes, I think that's it.

But that would be hilarious for others.

So I think we'll keep falling.

No, pinkies.

Yes.

Good.

Nice.

Yes, further.

We also said to each other on the street,

our friend group has changed enormously in one week.

Because there is also a baby born in our gang.

Baby Nina.

Welcome Nina.

Welcome.

We are Laura and Silke.

We are going to be the Crazy Owens.

With a lot of pleasure.

We have Baby Nina on the one hand,

but a good friend of mine from the Netherlands,

Jana, has also fallen in love with a baby, Ella.

So also welcome to Ella.

Girls rule the world.

Really?

They are only girls in my environment.

Great.

I said that in the royal house,

Prince Adamo became his father,

from Alex, also a girl.

Okay, okay.

Yes, look.

I was just thinking about it.

It must be amazing.

Good.

So that was our weekend.

That is our new friend group.

Then you will have, for example,

with her.

Yes.

You can maybe draw a stamp.

Ah, very good.

Yes.

Then you are all with us.

And then we ended our weekend in a very nice way.

I think.

And I hope you all,

you will see us on our socials,

because in cooperation with 4T Max,

we are also looking at the Twelfth,

the new FixX,

on Sunday evening at 4T 1.

He is also looking at the streaming service of 4T,

that is 4T Max.

So there are probably also the deliveries.

Weekly, it is about,

the name gives it all away.

It was the name of the people,

it was already taken.

So they couldn't do that.

They had to do something else,

so they called for the Twelfth.

Also good.

Also good.

It's about an Assisi's case.

There has already been a season,

where there is a quite doubt,

about the perpetrator,

who is the murderer of the facts.

And that is not different this time.

On the bench,

Anton and his daughter Julie are sitting on the bench.

We have our victim, Marjan.

And so there is research in the Assisi's case,

whether Marjan would have fallen from the stairs.

That was the explanation that Julie gave.

Anton would not be involved.

But the Open Bar Ministry is asking themselves.

And it is really exciting,

from the second one or so.

I was really in the middle of that.

Apart from the fact that we are probably the short-term audience,

the construction is really nice.

Because you are in the Assisi's case,

and you are in the middle of something like,

I don't know.

We are one more episode.

So people who still want to watch,

spoilers from now.

In your first episode,

you learn to know your main suspect.

We see him in the Assisi's case.

He is also,

that's logical,

he is apart,

but it also seems that

they no longer communicate with each other.

That was what we,

that's what we want.

There is no eye contact.

And that's his father and daughter.

And that's so painful.

You feel that pain.

That's really coming in.

So I think it's very good in the picture,

how difficult that relationship is at that moment.

And that you also get to know,

that it wasn't that difficult for him.

So we are going to,

my recap is actually back to

before the facts,

the moment of the facts and after the facts.

We also want to know a few jury members.

Yes, I think it's very clear,

Nico, the journalist in the jury,

that we are,

we are Nico,

that is one person.

There are still a few jury members

who jump out there,

like Vanessa.

Vanessa, I love you.

Very good.

Out of the cookie factory.

Yes, and I think that's good

when it comes to the low quality

of those jury members.

I think it's coming right in front of us.

We also have Catherine with the coffee.

I would also be Catherine.

You would indeed come up with

the tenth term of the day

for the security.

Yes, but you never know

whether the coffee is not working

or not tasty.

And you see,

that's it.

It's from today.

It happened, it happened.

What are my conclusions

after episode one?

He has already been in the picture.

My eyes are on him.

And it's Dennis,

the first partner of Marian

and the trainer of Julie.

A lot of questions about that character.

Yes, in my opinion,

as soon as you get in the court

in the picture,

as Anton is saying,

that he points his finger at him,

I thought, yes,

he has something to do with it.

And that,

probably,

is only confirmed with the last scenes

when they are eating spaghetti.

And Dennis says,

he has to catch it.

It's about a meeting

and not about

what he hears there,

because he has done this.

It is clear that,

or I still have that impression,

that Dennis is not sure

whether Anton is there.

But still,

the end goal is

he has to catch it.

Is it to blame yourself

or is it because

he is stupid?

I mean,

they can be different arguments,

but how it is for me

in the picture

or where I am now,

is that Dennis

does have

something to do with it.

Absolutely.

With his brother,

who also did something

about the explanation

that he had to leave.

Absolutely.

And that,

probably,

is only confirmed

with the last week.

So we have a meeting

with 4T Max,

because we are going to

look at the episodes

together with

some known friends of ours.

And you can see

our live reactions

on the episode

actually on 4T Max,

the days after the episode

online is probably

watched.

So you can see

how we speculate live

actually

together with some people.

So we shared that news

on our Instagram page

with a picture of us two

and we are going to do this.

We are going to do this.

And

someone from the cast

reacted to it.

With

Edward Munch.

Emoji.

Emoji Schreeu.

Enkeldat.

Enkeldat.

No further explanation.

And that was

Walter Hendricks

and he plays Dennis.

We immediately,

friends.

Eyes on you.

We have you in the hole.

This is not going to be

unnoticed.

No,

and I know,

we already said it with the mole

and it's probably going to happen again now.

Tunnel,

vision,

is real.

Disappointed.

Disappointed.

So I don't want to

talk too much

after the first episode,

but

that's the final conclusion.

Yes,

but I also think this

to make a point in itself.

For example,

I didn't know

that people

who are there in the suspect bank

can lie

about

what they have already

not done.

Yes.

So I think that's also

an interesting thing

to keep in mind in the background

that

let's not forget this too.

Actually,

your testimony,

we learned from Nico,

our journalists.

Love you,

Vibe.

I believe

that you

can believe our testimony.

They would have to speak the truth.

But our two suspects

would be able to lie.

Yes,

I

almost make this podcast

for six years.

And that's the first time

that I do that thinking

of

indeed,

but

I wouldn't be able to lie

because then you can

indeed,

not defend yourself.

And it is

the accuser

to prove your guilt.

Okay,

then I have one more question

for you.

A last short question.

Oh,

yes.

Imagine that

you are there

on Assisi.

Do you

choose

an advocate?

Oh.

Clare?

Or

do you choose

an advocate?

Frank.

Yes,

I

would choose

Duval.

Yes,

sorry.

I feel both of them

enormous.

They do it

very well.

I mean,

as an actor,

I think that the role of an advocate

in the first instance

may not be

the most boring,

but

there's a nail in it.

But

I think

Frank

would

choose

the north,

it has to be

like this

and we're going to do it

in the morning

under the bus.

We're going to do that.

And I notice that

Clare

still has some

humanity.

And I think that I

have more vibe

with Clare

than with Frank.

Yes,

but you do notice

that Frank

is happy

that

he has the jury

with him.

So

you do feel

like a mob

and

the jury

has to laugh

when he says things.

So

I think

it's more advantageous

for you to have Frank.

Do you understand?

Because

he might be

in the jury

by himself.

I think it's very difficult.

I'm going to

leave it

to him

for now

and then

we'll see who

I finally

win.

The one who

wins.

I think

you have to prove it.

Yes,

I think so too.

So

these are our first

thoughts.

We will

see

if you want to see more

here.

You can see it

on social.

You can watch it

on 4D Max

or every Sunday

on 4T1

live

on TV.

Yes,

it's good.

Yes,

it's very good.

And then

I'm going to

go over to

a guy

who is also

on 4T Max.

Look at him.

Namely

the last

day

the seat comes

about a

young woman

who

is very

loose

whether you

want to give

your answer

or not.

There are

many situations

that are very

recognizable

on the

workflow.

Oh,

it will be.

So that's

a warm

advice.

That's

how it is

all online.

So you can

just

binge once.

Fine.

I also have

a tip on

Prime.

I discovered

Prime

I'm going to call it

9 Perfect Strangers.

And

that actually tells

the story

of a group

of people

who

book a

wellness treatment

for a week away

away from

all the stress.

That's good for me.

And

they

come there

and that wellness

has

a certain

reputation.

Everyone

wants to be

helped by

the head

of the wellness

and they go

on his promise.

The

world

in the wellness.

But it

gets

rarer and rarer

and no one

really knows

what's going on.

And the

head

of the wellness

is no one

more than

Nicole Kidman

played by

Nicole Kidman.

Was it herself or not?

Was it

but it's

just a

top cast.

With

every actor

I thought

I know you.

I have

already seen

Luke Evans play

and

so

it's

it's really

an honor

to look at this.

Nice.

Thank you.

Good.

And then we have a sponsor

for this episode

and that is

Hello Fresh

back from me.

They had

something like

the season finale was good

in June.

So we're going

to pick up

in September as

series that

actually.

And as

series pick up

in September

we also have to pick up

in September.

It's

still there.

It's still there.

Still there.

Look,

we all know that

summer is

a little more

packed.

You don't have to

be so planned

as much.

You actually eat

a little

on the go

when it's

true.

But look,

those kids

have to go back to school.

You have to go back to

Ustramin.

You

find your

rhythm at work.

You

all know

how

tough it is.

I think

I'm one of

those people.

I'm going to

emphasize

what I'm going to eat.

That's

all that inspiration.

You have

a concrete week of

five days.

You have

a week.

But

those five

work days

you have to

fill up again.

I also

notice that

with

Annik.

Annik

gives

evening lessons.

I have to

worry again.

Because

I'm going to

eat at home.

And

you don't always

get tasted

by everyone.

That's

not per se

experience.

So

there's

a lot of stress

coming back

in these

routines.

So

that's why

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talking about

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Vous

It felt like you fell on a test.

I get it.

I also have that when you come to me and say,

I'm going to do that and then I really have to say,

I'm so sad, I have the impression that I don't know it.

You're going to have to tell me now.

Enlighten.

And then you're super proud if you're still an element.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, I know it.

I know it.

But unfortunately, this story wasn't the case for Lara.

But I actually came to this matter very accidentally.

I didn't know her either.

I just wanted to fill my bag with things.

And that's how I stumbled on this.

This is one of the boys with twist-and-turns.

She chose it well.

Thank you.

We'll start right away.

It's 2008 and we're in the American city of Raleigh.

I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.

Raleigh, I think.

Raleigh in North Carolina.

And there's the 21-year-old Latrice Curtis.

With her real name, Darren Lee Curtis.

And those two have been married for a year now.

And friends say that they had already given each other

the award after a few months.

So big loves for the two of them.

Yes, especially from their part.

Hops, yes.

Hops, okay, the award is given.

And it's even going to be so good if they think about it

to start a family, right?

Also here, babies, standing on the schedule.

Latrice was actually still a student.

At the North Carolina Central University.

And she studied there for bookkeepers.

Look, I've already said it.

A good bookkeeper, shout out to our bookkeeping team.

We love you.

Without you, they would have been in jail now.

Look, so they're very, very, very, very needy.

And to earn money, they work as cashiers in a local shop.

Yes.

No, do it.

Oh yes, I thought I'd pick it up.

No, I'll pick it up.

Yes, okay.

We're in January 2008.

And it's a Tuesday evening and...

Or do you want to say something else?

No.

No, no, no.

What I might want to say is that that's the only thing we know

about Latrice.

That's right, indeed.

Yes, I've found something.

She always had a smile on her face.

But that's what every True Crime podcast says about a person.

So we're a quiet Tuesday evening in January of 2008.

And Latrice had a lesson that day

at the University Central of North Carolina.

She left school there.

And she's leaving in a car.

And around ten o'clock, she calls from the car...

Ten o'clock.

Yes, sorry, ten o'clock in the evening.

She calls from the car to her real-life girlfriend, Darren.

And she says, look, I'm on my way home.

But I'm going to stop by on my way.

Snack times.

I don't know if she's going to take her Maltesers with her.

That's what Lucas is going to do.

But she says, I'm going to stop by on my way

and then I'm going to go home.

So see you soon.

And Darren waits and waits.

He goes to bed.

And he wakes up in a bed with no one next to him.

So Wednesday morning, he has something like...

Here's something wrong, because my wife didn't come home

and that's what they were going to do.

So that morning, Wednesday morning, he goes to the emergency services

and tells them that he wants to do the A-gift

of the disappearance of the trees.

He says to the emergency services, look, my wife didn't come home.

That night is the last...

I mean, he told me that he left the university.

That's the last thing I know.

Yes.

Now, what Darren doesn't know at the moment

when he calls to the emergency services,

is that there have been a few motorcyclists,

an hour earlier, an hour before he placed the phone

to the emergency services,

who were on the I-514.

And they said...

I already said the I-540.

That's also correct, the I-540.

The E-13.

So they pass by there

and one of them says, look,

I think there's something on the road, on the side.

And there's also a car next to it.

He realizes, he says, I'm going to look at what's on the hand.

And in the meantime, he calls the police

and he says, yes, I'm coming in the back,

that there's indeed a body lying there.

Now, when the police comes there,

they indeed meet a body there.

A little further, there's a white sedan

and it's all under the blood.

So no sign of it.

What they can immediately realize is that the attack

on the person actually took place in that white car.

Now, Darren in the meantime,

he has already called the emergency services,

he says, yes, I'm not going to stay here at home.

And he goes looking for his wife.

Now, he passes by the I-540

and he suddenly sees her car standing there.

So he says, okay, I'm going to talk to the police who's standing there.

And he actually gives a photo of her

and he says, look, this is my wife, this is her car.

Please don't tell me this is my wife who's lying here.

Under the white car.

Imagine that you're looking for your wife.

This is really your worst nightmare,

because your wife is gone, you're giving her a hand,

you're going to look for her.

And literally, after 10 minutes of driving,

you come across a place where your worst nightmare fills you up.

Because you see the police, you see one car standing there.

I would think he would stay in my car and call the police

and say that he has found his wife.

Because he's going to scold her.

I mean, he's going to scold her for what she's doing with her hand.

Just to reflect on that.

But I think especially because the car was parked there,

at least there were nine chances at ten that she was there.

Now, the body is identified by the car pretty quickly

and it turns out that it's the trees.

Now her father, Sherman Jones,

is actually trying to get in touch with his daughter

and with Darren in the morning.

Because he had also announced the news at 9 o'clock,

what people often do on the radio or on the television.

And he had indeed seen that there was a body found.

Yes, of course, that man knows that the trees and Darren

also live there in the neighborhood.

And in the end, he must also hear from the police

that the trees are indeed found.

And that Darren had actually given up as a missing person.

Now, the first assumptions.

Yes, as soon as the sheriff comes outside

and says, look, we don't know what's going on,

how it's going to happen and who's involved.

What we're going to do is treat this as a murder case.

Because there we have sufficient evidence

to not be able to tell the conclusion that she's dead.

But the signs are there.

In that first interview, they shared,

look, there were traces found by that woman.

And the police call and say, look, is there anyone

who has passed on the I-540 of Tuesday night to Wednesday morning?

Call us, let us know, you've seen something else,

outside the car that was already there,

the car of the trees, let us know.

Yes, now of course the first suspect in this story is Darren.

Because they know something like, okay, but you already knew

that they didn't come home that Tuesday night.

He's just going to sleep

and he called the next morning for the whole service.

After that, you shouldn't have had Alibi,

because he was alone at home, he's just going to sleep.

But I think it's what we always say,

you know your partner or that person, a little bit.

And you think, maybe they're somewhere with the car,

that they're tired, that they're going to sleep.

I don't know, but you don't know how tired they are.

Maybe they were super tired,

they were early and went to bed,

so they would see them coming home.

They would wake up, but not wake up.

And I don't think it's strange that they went to the police in the morning.

But I don't know the person, that's a difficult estimate.

Now, that morning, just after they came to the studio,

that Latrice died, he was already taken by the police.

But he works with her, he gives her a finger print,

he gives her DNA, a photo of him is taken of her.

But yes, the red mole goes on tour again,

because all neighbors know, so that's what Latrice is about,

that Darren is already being heard and so on,

that there are also house searches.

So everyone is from Darren, and even their father is from...

That dad of Latrice, he says, sorry,

I don't think you went to the police in the morning,

and he also spreads that openly in the media,

that I find it strange that he's going around with such an insolent.

So all eyes on Darren, from that side.

Yes, now, a few days later, there will be a autopsy report.

And there it is already, Laura said it all,

that there was a stasis in the first place.

And that's not two, that's not three, that's not ten, that's forty.

And you know what you're saying, that's about a crime of passion.

If there are so many stasis, there is emotion with it.

Absolutely, because the stasis is in her head, her neck, her chest and stomach.

And the biggest wound was at least fourteen centimeters long.

After that, there are also wounds on her hands.

It had two broken nails.

And researchers have stolen from those brown paper bags,

around her hands, to keep the evidence material.

There's often, when there's a fight,

I think there's a lot of DNA of the dadar under the fingernails.

Yes, furthermore, a toxicological report has been made.

And it turns out that there was no alcohol in her body.

The wounds were a few arms-suggestions,

because maybe they were victimized wounds.

And furthermore, it is said that there are jeans,

loose buttons and that there is something open.

And was there a condom found in the body of the trees?

So that's a remarkable, solid thing.

You've already said it, there was a report for tips.

And during the research, there was a trooper,

that's also an agent.

And he says, look, he...

No, sorry, for me he's an agent, but he has a suit and a hat.

And a hat, a cowboy hat, yes, yes, absolutely.

That's good for a visual eye.

You're totally right, totally right.

And he says, look, I went there around quarter past one in the morning.

And then there were two cars.

But I had a different hope and I couldn't check if everything was okay.

And I drove further.

I went back to the new one,

which is a good call from those people.

And then one of those two cars was gone.

But he didn't inspect what was there, why the car was there.

Then I think maybe you should do that.

Is it so hard to get a number plate to write down?

I don't think so.

But I think that's because they did the sleighbell,

because they do come after it, so that's the first car of the trees.

And that the second word was called Robert Reeves.

Oh yes, maybe he did write down the number plate.

Slink a trooper.

Yes, okay.

Then is that Robert Reeves?

Yes, do it.

Robert Reeves is from Durham.

And Robert, he's 43 years old.

And he's...

Mr. Pastor, he's in English, he's minister

at the Cedar International Fellowship.

He had a nickname, the bishop.

And he also found it very important that people knew that was his nickname.

I suspect that he's a higher rank in the Catholic order.

But I think that he was more of a domineer

than a priest, because priests can't go into relationships.

But domineers do.

When I think about the program 7-7 of my book...

I was very serious about that.

That was also my domineer, wasn't it?

It doesn't matter, because there are pastores in America.

It depends on which line of faith you're in.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

But the fact that he's more important,

what we feel with him is almost like a bishop.

Yes, what an ego, man.

Very fascinating.

Question number one is, of course,

okay, Robert Pastor.

I'm going to call him Robert Pastor.

What did you do with the car of the trees?

And there's word for Darren.

Did you ask the real note of the trees?

Is that your pastor?

Is it your Sunday?

Is there a link?

But Darren has no idea who Robert is.

No, Robert is also...

Yes, taken for granted, of course.

He also gives his fingers off, his DNA.

There's also a picture of him.

And they ask, indeed, how is that car?

He says, yes, I sometimes borrow it from my housemate,

but I don't know anything about it.

And he says, yes, I was just in the church for a celebration that evening.

So, yes, this is my alibi.

Now, the only problem is that his parochies say...

Is that the only problem?

That's the only problem, ultimately.

Yes, we haven't seen Mr. Pastor at all that evening.

So Robert passes his explanation and says,

yes, I was at home all night.

Yes, that's not a solid alibi, Robert.

And you know, it's not super to pass your explanation.

No. And there's another problem.

His DNA has been given off.

And then it's found on the steering wheel of the Latrice car.

And according to experts, it shows that he has found the steering wheel.

So for the police, Robert's letter is found

for the murder of Latrice.

But anyway, Laura says...

I've always thought that.

You love it. I can like it.

You can start seeing me every time, like Laura does.

Like Laura does.

Nobody knows who Robert is.

There's no link to that man.

And also with the parochies, they have something like...

We know the trees and they're in need.

No, and also, why is our domineering declared?

Because if someone is such a good person, he says,

he's an awesome man of God.

He wouldn't be here until he's gone.

Sorry, is this my new Instagram bio?

Awesome girl of God? Maybe.

Five. Five. Five.

Now, Robert is declared for the murder of Latrice

and is asked to be prepared.

And he can happily say what the link is between him and Latrice.

He says, I know Latrice myself, not,

but I do have one person between me and Latrice.

And that's my housemate, Steven Randolph.

Steven came to my house a few years ago.

He also studies at the University of North Carolina.

And Latrice came here, eventually, over the floor.

But who is Steven?

Steven is a young man.

And he's brought in two days after the murder of Latrice.

He's questioned by the police.

He's a basketball player.

I was talking in English, but I'm not going to do it.

N-C-C-U.

That's a good one.

The N-C-C-U.

Yes.

And then he's asked,

Bo, so you saw Latrice,

are you classmate, what is your link?

And Steven is known as, I'm a ladies' man and Latrice and I.

We have a relationship.

Bo, are you married for a year now?

I'm going to start a child.

And then a basketball player comes to your house.

Yes, look, you're young.

You're young.

I think, yes, look, it's not good.

No, we don't have to discuss it.

No, it happened, Va.

But Latrice apparently said to him,

look, I'm married,

but she didn't give much information about it.

And Steven says, look, Latrice was the night before the Stierf was with me.

She said to Darren, I'm going to make a little stop.

And then I came up with the little stop.

That snack was allowed to take literally.

Now, and I think this is a separate detail in the story.

So they indeed had sex that evening.

And the condom stuck to me.

And Latrice left there, as Steven said.

And Steven says to him, yes, Latrice left.

And then I went with another girlfriend.

Really a lady's man.

He's a lady's man.

Now Steven, well, there's still his explanation.

He doesn't like it, because he also says, look,

I did receive some strange telephones.

And my other girlfriend also received strange telephones.

We don't know specifically what these strange telephones were.

Maybe there's something wrong, but it's good that he's here.

Maybe he has something to do with it.

And also, he says, a month before Latrice died,

his car tires were broken.

So that's why he had to take Robert's car.

Now, and the police are also going to the slaughterhouse.

And they come behind that Robert had a second phone number.

Or a second phone number, since then.

And that phone number was chosen by the number

that those strange telephones gave to Steven and his other girlfriend.

And also, the location where that phone was used

came by the location where the tires were broken.

So everything is linked, as far as we know, to Robert.

Yes, we're sitting with Steven, who was actually

unaware of all those strange telephones.

But now suddenly, it's his housemate, Pastor Robert.

Yes, now Steven has given away his fingerprint and DNA,

but his DNA is not found again.

And then we're still sitting with the DNA of Darren

and his fingerprint.

But that's also not found again on the crime scene.

So those two suspects were actually excluded again.

Then there's something else that speaks in the background of Robert.

Yes, let's not say that he's not the best CV.

No.

Robert started his career as a minister or...

Dominic.

That's a better word.

Dominic started in South Carolina in the middle of the 1980s.

He was there at the Pleasant Hill Baptist Church.

But there he was in 1987, he had to leave

because he was accused of sexual abuse

or of being a 17-year-old boy.

He was there in 1987.

He was there a few years before he was arrested.

It turns out that he was also accused of sexual abuse in 1982.

While the community says that he was a pastor with a full conviction.

As a man of God.

As a man of God, that's always the right thing to do.

So he was sent to a new community of believers.

They said, you know, we have to be able to look at the crimes of the past.

We're going to give you a new chance.

That's in New York City.

There's also the Pleasant Hill Baptist Church in South Carolina.

And then they have to send punishments to New York City.

You can understand that.

But he's also accused of sexual abuse

with charges of sexual abuse

at a younger age.

He's accused of sexual abuse in January 2002.

And then there's a new church in Brooklyn

to end up in Durham.

I'd like to say that there is a classic Catholic church.

They move the problem somewhere else.

But you can do it further with what you're doing.

Just within Christendom, if that's the case.

I don't think that's a big problem.

So he was still active in the church, absolutely.

Now we're still asking ourselves why Robert did this.

We only know that link with Stephen.

There's really nothing out there about why he did it.

Robert still has his fault.

Let's not forget that.

There's also a high position about his pride.

Then the charges came with the motive.

And they said, look, Robert actually had a serious crush on Stephen.

On his house.

And Stephen didn't have that.

He was a lady's man.

He was a lady's man.

And he just wanted to live in his house without doing anything.

So Robert was wearing a blue shirt with Stephen.

And according to the charges,

Robert couldn't have been kidnapped.

And Latrice was a kind of obstacle for him to not be with Robert.

So Latrice's conclusion had to be cleared out of the way.

So Robert would have followed Latrice's visit to Stephen.

He would have stopped for certain reasons.

And then Robert would have attacked her and killed her.

So that's the motive of the charges.

Yes, and then it's time for our court case.

It starts on 29 September 2009.

Robert, the pastor, was almost alone there.

Because just before the court case starts, his lawyer team has been fired.

Classic.

And he says, look, I'm here every week for the church.

I can do that here as well.

But I don't understand that you have that ego to say, I can do it.

Yes, I think if you live emotionally in the field,

that you think you might not be able to talk to someone else,

while you think you might be able to talk to someone else.

Well, it's clear that it all has to do with two people.

But then he decides to defend himself.

And just before the court case starts, the judge says,

we're not going to do that.

We're going to give you two lawyers, George Kelly and Margaret London.

And they're going to defend you and you're going to sit quietly on that bench.

And you're not going to be too tired.

So he's going to get two lawyers in his strut.

So he just has to do it.

Then it's the opening statements.

And the lawyers, they put everything on the table,

what we just said.

So they say, look, he's already tried to misuse young men

for less years, sexually.

He's just done that.

And they claim, he was, Latrice was an obstacle for Robert.

He was full of it, he was dead.

And they also say, look, his alibi isn't right.

He said he was at the church for a celebration.

It's not right, because his parochial can't put him there.

And look, at the end of this court case,

the judge is going to ask you to declare the accused

for first degree murder.

And if that would happen, if they were guilty,

he would be able to get a life sentence.

So no crime.

Now, that's the opening statement of the defendation.

And now it's my turn to defend myself with the two new lawyers.

And they say, thanks, we're not going to say anything.

We're not going to say anything.

I don't know if that's a general...

So, nothing to add. No comment.

I wouldn't think that Robert would say,

see, it's better to do it alone.

But I'm sure he said that, in this case.

No, I think it's very punishable.

I'm the only one who's going to say that.

I'm the only one who might think that he's literally

put down there, that the court case has begun.

Do you understand that the judge is saying,

you can't defend yourself, I'll get two lawyers out of here.

Yes, but then I would ask you to question yourself.

Yes.

So I don't know what the argumentation is.

It often happens that the defendant says,

we're not going to do an opening statement here.

We haven't talked about the murder yet.

We do know that Latrice was put down,

that the court case has begun.

Now, suddenly, when they come to the court case,

when they're convinced that they found a knife in Robert's car

after the murder of nine months.

Nine months.

Yes, so...

The way I think about it,

they first...

I suspect they took a car in battle,

because they were spotted.

I think they did a small search there,

and that they were kept.

And I think they went through the process

through the car,

and then suddenly found something they saw over the head.

In the initial investigation,

the first search of the car was never found by a person.

And now, nine months later...

And they also found a driver.

Yes.

The witness is someone from the police.

And he says, we can't link it to the murder,

even the screwdriver, as the knife.

I think they mean it so much

that Latrice's DNA is not on the two items.

No, but the knife could be used

during the murder,

because the sharp part,

comes over with the wounds.

And even if you put enough force,

you could get the sharp part of 14 cm.

But there is no proof that the weapons are used.

So we don't really have that much.

We're not sure if it's the murder weapon,

and can we not link the murder weapon to Robert

and not link it to Latrice?

Yes, your thoughts, please.

I would like to come up with something else.

You don't have a comment either.

No comment.

Let's go on. That's totally fine.

You see you can do that in the real world.

There is someone special about the word,

during the...

Who do you want to talk to?

Or do you want to do something else?

I was talking to items,

so I wanted to talk to her about her car.

Oh, do me.

And his car.

So Silke just said that.

That...

That Latrice's car was under the blood.

And they did research around the car

where the body was found,

where much less blood was found.

And in the first research on Robert's car,

they also did research on where they were looking for blood.

Because those two cars were close to each other.

We know that the crime scene was there.

We're going to start with Robert's car.

But Robert's car was very nice in order.

And there was no blood anywhere in Robert's car.

So even if he got blood on his face and went back home,

the blood wasn't there.

There was no blood of Latrice in Robert's car.

I'd like to give it to you.

Yes, that's fine.

Then?

Steven.

Steven is also being questioned during this case.

And he immediately said,

I'm at the moment when I came to know that Robert made sexual advances.

I'm going to get a weapon, because I don't feel safe.

And it was also the argument of Robert,

look, if you give me oral sex, you can live here free.

And you can live in nature.

And Steven said, no, thank you.

Now let's see.

Yes, I think Robert would have asked him

if Steven was a freak in the sheets

and if he was full of kinky things.

And yes, Steven felt so uncomfortable

that he actually allowed himself to go home as Robert was there.

And I don't take him for granted,

because you can have a crush on someone,

but you talk it out, you put on a blouse and you move on.

But here it was immediately clear that Robert didn't agree.

Yes, it's a difficult situation, because Steven is also a student.

So if someone who doesn't have a lot of money at the moment,

that's how my students are doing.

You live from achy noodles and every euro you can save, that's what you do.

So when Robert meets you and offers you a very low price,

then I can believe that you are naive or hopeful,

and then you are in that situation and you don't dare to go back,

because if you feel threatened, it might feel dangerous.

Because without doubt, it's a thought that goes through your head,

but why didn't you go away? If you feel unsafe,

because things like that are more complicated than that.

So I just wanted to defend Steven.

I also saw a photo of Steven.

We'll share that.

We'll share that.

There are also other witnesses who had a relationship with Steven.

He has friends from him.

And they also say, look, I also had strange phones.

I also had difficult cases.

My bands were also broken.

So those are all things that don't speak in front of Robert.

But of course, the defense wants to doubt him.

They say, look, for us,

it's more about Steven than Dader.

Because Steven is a fit basketball player,

a fit young man, and Robert has a bad left hand.

I don't know what exactly that means.

I also have a bad left hand at the volleyball.

And the defense claims that a lot of force has been needed

to kill the Thwees, to keep them down.

There are fights and they say, look,

Robert shouldn't have been in the state to do that.

And the blood in the car also speaks in the front.

Or the break in the front also speaks in the front of Robert.

Let's see what I have to say about the mess.

They say, look, Steven does have a mess collection.

It's probably an important detail.

I didn't find it back, because I personally feel like I mentioned it.

What was there between a mess collection?

Because I also have a mess collection, kitchen messes.

Is it there, or is it like...

Pet boy messes.

Yes, 100 samurai's wares on the wall.

Yes, I know.

I would like to know.

Let's see.

I would like to know about Robert's DNA and where it was found

and especially where it wasn't.

Can I say one more thing about the mess?

Sure, you always mess with the mess.

I also have a mess collection and that's my hobby.

Okay, go for it, girl.

The defense says, look, the girl found it only nine months later.

Why wouldn't she have been brought down by someone later

to be able to make Robert easier to blame?

And the accusers, you have something like,

dude, seriously, this is pure speculation.

It doesn't make sense at all.

But it doesn't make sense at all?

Look, our judgment on that.

The accuser says, I can only say that we found it.

But I can't tell you that this would be the killer weapon.

I can only give you the facts

and it's your judgment to do what you want to do with it.

But these are the facts, like we found the mess.

It's a pretty big car with eight seats.

And it would be all behind the car in the last seats.

I was just going to give my opinion about it.

I don't think it's an excuse.

I don't think it's an excuse.

You're sitting here with a main suspect in a murder case.

Deonato had to be at the top.

Absolutely, I agree with that.

And the fact that the mess was found without Deonato putting up the trees...

That's just a gift for the defense.

They haven't prepared anything yet.

And then he still gives it as a gift.

I get it. I don't think you can take that in your fate as a killer weapon.

Because you don't know. There was no blood on it.

No, you should keep this.

I do think so.

You shouldn't keep it.

I'm going to do it again.

The solicitation mails.

Do I have the job now or not?

So they wouldn't be able to take it in their fate.

I think so, personally.

And then the defense went on to prove that DNA.

You can do it now.

You know that's my passion.

So, we're sure that Robert's DNA was found on the steering wheel

of the car of the trees.

And the defense has something to do with logic.

The trees were visited by Robert at home by Stephen.

And that DNA might have been found on the steering wheel.

DNA researchers say that's very unlikely.

The only way that DNA can really land on a steering wheel

is probably when Robert touched the steering wheel.

There's DNA from Robert.

Where did no DNA from Robert find that on the body of the trees?

We know that two of her fingernails have been broken.

There's DNA found under the fingernails of the trees.

Because she's been damaged.

We're sure of that by her mouth.

And under those fingernails, no DNA was found by Robert.

But other DNAs.

I didn't write that down.

Let's see.

Yes.

Wait.

Yes, there's DNA found under her fingernails.

But we don't know who it is.

No, I thought I missed that.

No, no, no. Sorry.

I didn't say that correctly.

So, there's DNA found under her fingernails, but it's not from Robert.

Yes, so they say that this is all...

There's DNA found under her fingernails.

She broke someone's fingernails.

But it wasn't from Robert, says the defense.

This has to prove enough to free him.

It's scientific evidence, I think, of the defense.

I understand why they're going for it.

They're doubting her.

So, it's up to the jury to decide if it's a reasonable doubt.

I have one last statement.

It's an alarm.

Robert's house has an alarm.

Every night, when everyone was at home, it was turned on

and off in the morning.

Stephen and Robert had their own codes.

Robert had the master code, and Stephen had his own code

to go inside.

What can you see in the data

of that alarm is that it was turned on and off

several times that night.

What does it mean that everyone is inside

and that they're going to sleep

and that the other one is still inside and outside?

We can see that both codes were used.

And just after the fact,

Robert would have asked Robert to raise his security service.

Sorry, he would have asked Robert to raise his security service.

He would have asked Robert to raise his security service.

So, we have more control over who leaked his apartment

and who went inside.

And that was after the fact?

Yes.

Interesting.

Yes.

Why would you do that?

I don't know.

I think he knew something about it.

I think he realized that he had given his code.

Yes.

Just after the fact.

Yes, and that he was afraid of something like that.

Or that he didn't trust someone else.

Something like that, I don't know.

But it's an interesting element.

In any case, we can see that he used a lot of codes

so that there is clearly a mistake of people going inside

and going outside at different times.

And then it's not true either, because he said

that he was at home all the time.

Well, it's up to the jury if there is enough doubt

or if there is enough doubt to speak freely or not.

And they are together for two days.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing?

Two days?

I would die.

Why?

Because...

The thing is, because we have a jury member,

Lisbeth, who interviewed us for our book.

And she told us that since then, she's always in my head

that you listen to that process.

During that process, you don't really talk to the other jury members.

And then you come to the point where you have to debate and decide.

And you step into that debate.

You've already formed something in your head.

But you don't experience that all the time,

because everyone has experienced it in a different way.

And I myself...

I find myself an open-minded person.

I can easily listen to it and I can easily think,

I understand that too, I understand that too.

And so I would go crazy in my head if you had to switch

all the opinions of all those people for two days.

Yes, yes, and that would only be two days,

because that would be longer deliberations.

Yes, yes, I know, but I find two days extremely long.

For me, everything would be too long after five hours.

Yes, yes, I understand that.

So now they're together for two days and they come back.

And they say, Robert is guilty.

And the judge also said, we've made the right decision.

The facts were in there. The evidence was there, the judge.

We'll get back to that in a minute.

So, Robert is guilty.

Now, the verdict is read out.

And then the judge needs one of the open-minded candidates

to come and tell us something.

Because apparently there was still extra evidence.

They couldn't use it because it was collected

during their home search,

but something went wrong with that home search order.

So it wasn't valid.

Not valid indeed.

Now, what was the evidence?

The open-minded candidate says, look, I can tell you now.

Apparently they had found a sort of fire extinguisher.

And a partially smoked fuel tank with a certain substance in it.

And he said that the open-minded candidate was wearing clothes.

So he said, if we could use this, we would have claimed

that Robert's clothes were burned in the morning

when everyone was out of the house.

So there was no evidence of the clothes that you were wearing.

Or that you had blood on your face, or DNA.

And also an interesting point.

Apparently they bought a bonnet for the purchase

of what the open-minded candidates call a fire extinguisher.

And that bonnet was dated from the morning of January 30th.

So the day after the disappearance of the trees.

And where did they find that bonnet?

At his house, at Robert's house.

And what does that fire extinguisher make?

He called it a fire extinguisher,

but they think he used it to burn things.

Burned, okay, okay, okay.

Burned material.

So they couldn't use it,

but it also speaks in its disadvantage that this accident

is going to buy the morning things

to possibly burn the material.

To destroy it.

Robert was sentenced to life imprisonment.

And he had the first chance to be released in 2009,

but at the moment he's still in prison.

And he's from Pesquetank Correctional Institution

in Elizabeth City, North Carolina.

Okay, my...

A lot to unpack.

Here we go in a bit deeper.

You're in the jury.

You experienced this process.

And you have to go into deliberation.

How do you get the room to enter?

How are you one of the twelve?

I'm critical, let me say that, because I think it makes sense.

The proof that there is material is amazing.

The fact is, of course, that his car has been effectively spotted.

His past also speaks in its disadvantage,

but they only have a bit of DNA on the steering wheel.

And that's nothing, right?

Really concrete proof.

It's all very, very, very indirect.

Yes, it does indeed.

Of course, I mean, I don't know how...

How the public complaints have been motivated.

They did talk to Steven,

but Robert has never explained anything about it.

Yes, my...

And I think you also have a DNA under your fingernails,

which is unknown.

So I think that Steven might have been able to do something more tomorrow.

He says he was with his girlfriend.

Yes, his DNA wasn't found on Ali.

Yes.

I'm going to say that we know that his DNA has been cleared,

and that of Darren, too.

You know that, don't you?

Maybe there's an extra person to talk to.

The thing is, I think, that's why Robert did this,

which is very difficult for me to understand.

Why the trees?

There have been so many friends in Steven's past.

Why is he the big competitor that Robert has to deal with?

What is the problem there?

Absolutely.

That's a big problem for me,

but you don't know what someone is going to do about it.

There has been a lot of confusion,

and it's because he's married,

that Robert knows a lot as a priest,

that he finds the bridge too far.

He's tried to call Latrice with that number.

She recognized him and said to him,

hey, let me go, calm down.

And he's shocked that something's going to happen.

It can be a lot.

I do think that if there's a lot of doubt,

I think you have to talk in front of your doubts.

I mean, of course, there's never anyone in my area for murder.

I'll probably talk differently than that.

If it was about my own business,

I would also want everyone to sit down with something.

But you have to give a lot of doubt.

And I think that there really is...

There's no murder weapon we're sure of.

There's no blood from Latrice in his car, on his body.

Is DNA on the steering wheel?

Yes, but his car was there.

And he claims that nobody else,

maybe Steven, who used it,

didn't lie about his alibi at all.

He lied very hard about his alibi.

So those things are all in his direction.

It's just a question of how he did it.

It's a lot of indirect evidence.

And there used to be a big criminal against us.

If you have a lot of indirect evidence, that's enough.

But is that direct evidence?

So I understand it.

And I think he did it.

Yes, I think that when you came to know about the fire speed,

etc.

Yes.

It's not bad that this person was caught.

He certainly doesn't do that wrong.

No, no, no.

Indeed.

So I think he's right.

Yes, okay.

Okay, okay, okay, I think it's okay.

You think it's okay?

Yes, but I think it's a very special case.

And I also think it's really...

What did the police put out?

The investigation is not regulated.

It's a mess that suddenly is found,

without being really sure.

They didn't do any research.

No, I can't imagine

that they haven't found that mess for so long.

Come on.

Or maybe not.

But in my head, it's really...

Come on, it's really under the body.

Do you understand? It's really hidden.

But what I read was that it was stuck at the height.

Or it was found at the height of the rear seats.

In a kind of rail.

So you could move the chairs forward, for example.

Was it there somewhere?

Stop it, if you still think so.

That's not a small mess, is it?

Yes, and I also have a question

about all the murderers who are listening to us.

But your murder weapon, why did you keep it in place?

Also, why didn't you put it in place?

In the water, somewhere.

Okay, maybe I don't see the logic.

Maybe it was just a mess that was heard

in the Steven's collection.

But you didn't just say that, like,

I am my bad, I wasn't a mess.

No, that's not true, because you're one of the three suspects.

I know.

That's your own trap, it's going to be a mess.

Probably, because of my stupid expression.

No, no, that's not stupid, I get it.

And somewhere in front of this podcast started,

I mean, our podcast, which we've been working on for almost six years,

I would say, or the idea of not taking an advocate,

that's the same principle.

You believe in your own guilt, so you're honest,

but that should never be true.

Always an advocate.

Always an advocate, always throw your murder weapon in the water.

Throw away hundreds of them.

Throw away hundreds of more tips.

Throw away hundreds of them on bookkeeping, call tomorrow.

What kind of child do you have?

And such a mess in prison.

Such a mess in prison is always that you throw away your bills.

And you don't know that.

Well, that was the bag of the trees.

On a strange matter.

Vildwist and turns.

Yes.

I had a lot of fun researching it.

I hope you enjoyed it.

Yes, and see you next time.

See you next time. Bye-bye.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.