de volksjury: Aflevering 117 - Judith Notermans

Welcome to episode 117 of The Volksgerie.

We are Laura and Silke.

How is it going?

How is it going?

That was a lot of blames from you.

That guy didn't come with us today.

No, no, no.

Those are influences that are around me, I think.

I'm eligible for it.

Jealous.

But it was terrible.

How is it going?

Good.

I'm wondering where the summer is.

Everyone is talking about it.

Hello Summer.

Hello Zon.

Hello Universe.

Do better.

Yes, please.

Because this isn't it.

I'm already happy with it.

We live in Belgium.

We haven't started summer for a while.

This year we started super late with that summer.

But are you consistent?

And will you stay?

Yes.

We were on vacation.

We had the sun.

Super fun.

We came back.

And we thought, oh yes.

The Belgian summer is coming.

Let's go to the terrace.

Let's go to the terrace.

It's been a long time.

Light outside.

Nice to talk to everyone.

Tea at home.

Cocktail at home.

No, nothing.

You can't do anything.

It's the one show after the other.

We were also at a family party yesterday.

And the first half of the day was still good.

But we had to run inside.

Inside.

Oh no.

Because it started to melt.

And then it's another vibe.

Yes, and it's the vibe.

I'm not ready for it.

I'm going to be honest.

The autumn wasn't planned yet.

No, but I've already said several times last week.

It's autumn.

Let's also say that we're recording this a week earlier.

Yes, sorry.

You don't know this.

But we also have a life.

Still.

Still.

And this is a pre-recording.

It's 100% my fault.

I was going to record it next week.

But then I'm hopefully at the Loker's party.

With shining sun.

We'll see.

If I can believe it, then it would be better this week.

But you never know in Belgium.

But at the moment we're at Indigiet in order to record.

Yes, great.

So there might be some atmosphere sounds.

How was your weekend and your week for the rest?

Good, good.

Anik and I went out in between.

We went to Maas-Megelen or Old Places on Thursday.

And on Thursday we thought we were in Maas-Megelen, but it was raining.

It was raining?

It was raining.

It was raining.

What else?

So yes, I felt like a child in the holiday.

Because what do you do then?

You go to the movies with the children when it's raining.

What were you going to see?

Oppenheimer.

We spent the afternoon well.

That's really value for money, because that's three hours.

That's three hours indeed.

The whole day is planned.

We went to Maas-Megelen to see.

So we knew, okay, road trip to Maas-Megelen.

We came there.

We put ourselves there in that movie.

Three hours further.

We're going to eat something together.

Then a hotel.

Great day.

And then the next day we went to the wellness.

What fun.

Yes, it was very fun.

I can really enjoy it.

Yes, absolutely.

And that's also something that Anik has taught me.

Really?

To go to the wellness.

Before, I think I did that twice in my whole life.

And now we do it a little more regularly than just two.

So that was fun.

I thought it was a nice discovery.

Oh, the sauna.

I know how to appreciate it.

It's your thing.

It's my thing.

But I really have to learn the sauna.

Because it's the first time in five minutes I really thought.

Not even once.

Like, okay, I'm out.

Because I just couldn't handle it.

Ah, yes, from the heat.

From the heat, yes.

I really had to learn to build up.

Really.

But it really came back to me super relaxed.

The feeling that I always feel when you've been to the sauna.

And then you go to bed at night.

And your body still needs to be re-glued.

Ah, yes.

Yes, I felt very lazy the rest of the evening.

And then you have to go to another sauna.

So it was a bit of a hassle.

But also going to sleep on time, you know.

I put the sauna in a vibe.

And the only thing you can still wear is a big donk on you.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

And I really liked that.

So yes, a good weekend was actually going to be like that.

And you?

Super calm weekend was also good.

For the change?

For the change, that's true.

No, yes, a good weekend was going to be called again.

There was so much inside.

Yes, you can't do much else.

I did watch TV.

I did listen to a lot of podcasts.

I didn't have one, not two, but three tips.

Or May.

Yes, tell me.

Yes, we've already talked about it.

We have the same tip.

It's a belief in magic.

Yes, a podcast from the BBC.

I always like that podcast from the BBC.

That starts with, this is the BBC.

Yes, yes, good.

That's what it is right now.

Yes.

Crazy story.

It's about a young girl, Mike, who has a serious illness.

And actually inspiration.

During that illness, she says to herself, if I'm Chinese or if I feel better,

then I want other children to help and give them the time of their lives.

And they are together with their mom, a charity,

with which they provide the sick children a nice day.

And suddenly, she leaves the note, goes back to it and becomes Mike still sick.

She gets a heart attack.

And after a few months, people start asking themselves whether Mike is really sick.

Yes, so it's a very intriguing podcast.

Because there are also certain celebs.

We're going to say Harry Styles.

Harry is there.

Harry is there.

And it's crazy.

Because for all the episodes, one and again,

one goes from one, from one corner to the other.

At episode 4, I thought, it can't always end with such a sick climate.

Every episode was another step, another step, another step.

I really listened to it as quickly as I could.

It was very fascinating.

Very good.

So we actually listened to it simultaneously.

Yes, I'll talk to you later in the kitchen.

I have three podcast tips.

And I also said to you, look, oh no, we're going to have the same one anyway.

My second podcast tip is, here mom lives now.

It's from the standard.

It's a three-part series that they do instead of this one today, I think.

About the women's prison in Brugge,

where women with their children in the prison live.

Interesting.

Very fascinating.

It's something that I also enjoy a lot.

Yes, yes.

Yes, and that woman is left behind,

she hears the children on the background, what their story is,

what it's hard to choose, what they think they are,

how they got there.

That may take longer for me.

Okay.

And then, last but not least,

a little bit about your activity in Maas-Megelen.

I would like to go to the last episode.

Yes, no, that won't be the last episode.

But one of the last episodes of Welcome to the A.E.

tips about Oppenheimer with Professor Tom Sauer

as a political scientist in international politics

and nuclear weapons expert.

It's something that I might not want to hear,

but it was mercilessly fascinating.

I was so fascinated.

So fascinating.

So did I.

I listened to it last week.

And it's more normal that my mouth just fell open

because so much happened.

But we're not talking about being at the top,

or that we're not learning how it is.

No.

It's also going further than the atomic.

It's also about the war in Ukraine

and how that actually happened.

And what's happening with Putin.

And a lot has been learned in this episode.

Yes, a lot has been learned at 1.5 hours.

Yes.

And that has become so much more scary.

Exactly.

Thank you.

Do you have any tips?

Yes.

So Friday after the welcome, we came home

and then, indeed, a little bit in the seat.

What are we going to look at?

Oh, Sillian is on Streams.

That's what we're going to look at.

Well, let's look at this one.

Because I thought it was a very entertaining film,

especially with the combination of the music that is used there.

There are a lot of recognizable records that are included there.

I thought it was going to be a lot more recognizable.

Yes, especially for me, the Sundays.

Oh, but that was all back in the day.

But I liked it because there is also a documentary about it.

Also on Streams.

We are also looking at it.

Sillian The Lost Tapes.

And then I saw it on social media that it was shared.

And a lot of people down there say,

oh, those were your good times.

Oh, I've been there.

And then you see those images.

And to be able to connect real people there.

They say, oh, that really happened.

Yes, it really happened.

People have really experienced it.

And what really surprised me the most,

I didn't know that at all,

but that's because Sillian has been there for four years.

He has been there for four years.

It has had such an impact.

Yes, I think it's amazing,

because for four years,

that doesn't seem to be much,

but if you count from 17 to 23,

those are core memories.

So for a very large group of people,

it really was their youth that it stopped abruptly.

And at the same time, for a very limited number of people.

And that's fascinating,

because they brought something with them,

which the rest of us will never bring with them in that way.

So I think that's very interesting.

Also the documentaries,

they looked at those four episodes

after we saw the film.

And there are a lot of puzzle pieces together,

because when you look at the film,

you often think,

that can't really happen.

And then you're like, oh yeah, okay, that's true.

So I think it's a very intriguing film

and documentaries.

Yes, also Kudos and Streams.

This is not sponsored,

but there are now,

so Sam and Zillian are close,

also on Streams.

The Achtberg comes up this week.

Rebels is there,

so a lot of Flemish cinema is...

On Streams?

On Streams this summer.

I always like that.

Of course.

If you haven't seen the Bioscope,

they are all warm.

For sure.

Yes, yes, yes.

Because I can't go to Zillian

in the cinema,

so I'm happy that it's online.

Finally, it's available.

I was really looking forward to it.

Great.

Okay, good.

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I feel like in 2050,

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Yes, I...

Not to shame or something,

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But now you're going to shame?

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No, I'm also very happy with it.

Indeed.

And I also drink less cold drinks.

And more water.

And more water, yes.

Yes, I'm really...

The bottle is right next to me,

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Yes, don't doubt it.

That's it.

The delivery.

Yes, you chose it,

but this is actually one that

was put through you as...

In progress.

In progress.

Yes, because a few deliveries

I don't know which delivery it was,

Laura, about a certain food

that might have been used

to cover a murder.

It was about a boat room.

And there is a lot from the Netherlands

who reacted very hard.

But then you have to do this for sure.

Are we going to say it?

No.

No, we're not going to say it yet.

Well, I went straight to the search

for materials to search for three.

But it was very difficult.

So it's my only delay

that we make that delivery now.

Because we are actually being made

immediately after that delivery.

And then when I came to the book

I also came across a murder story

by Gerlof Leistra.

And I thought, okay,

I found it, I'm going to buy it

or buy it in the store.

Nothing to find.

It's really unbelievable.

And then I thought,

well, that's written by the Netherlands.

What is the opponent of 2dehands.be?

markplaats.nl

So I looked at that.

One example.

And I thought, yes,

that's going to cost me a lot here.

Because that's so rare.

Unique.

1,49 €

from Helene.

Thank you Helene.

Thank you Helene.

And she sent it right away.

It was in the middle of the north.

And I've been already

on markplaats.nl.

Where did you come from?

When I was still in Utrecht

studying.

And Sela Sou came to Utrecht

and we bought the cards

via markplaats.

Then I didn't have a ticket.

And the tickets

never arrived.

And we weren't the only ones

who bought the book.

So I bought the book

with only doubt.

But Helene, I don't know

whether she listens to us

or knows us.

I don't think so.

But thanks for the great cooperation

and that's why we can now

make this episode.

Yes, it was also very cute

because Silke of course

had the book.

He was only one example.

So she really took a lot of pictures

from every page

that I printed out.

Because he couldn't

print online.

Because that was just a picture.

Then I printed out a book

or A4 paper.

And that's it.

And that's how everything comes

good when it's true.

Shall we start then?

Go ahead.

It's July 22, 2003.

And the 30th year

Judith Noordrimans

discovered that day

at Aarberg.

She works as an orthopedic

surgeon at the RIAG

in the Netherlands,

Limburg City Hall.

And a RIAG is actually

the abbreviation

of a regional institution

for ambulances,

mental health care,

a Dutch institution

for mental health care,

for diagnostics

and treatment of people

with a psychiatric

or psychical approach.

We used the same website.

And it's actually

about people

for whom the ambulance care

was sufficient.

So actually

taking pictures

in a psychiatrist's hospital

is not necessary.

But their problems

are,

as well,

too complex

to just be helped

by a home doctor

or a social worker.

So Judith is there

at the hospital.

And she works with people

who are at the autism spectrum.

We're going to do it

from now on

as an ASS,

autism spectrum disorder.

And she works with

those people

who have that

and also with a family.

And that day,

July 22, 2003,

she goes first

at the 13-year-old Gilles

in the Riyach.

And Bea,

her mother,

is there too.

And Judith actually

talks to her

about their upcoming vacation

in France.

Because Judith

would go along

with Bea

and her family

so that she

would also be able

to take care

of Gilles.

Very noble.

Yes.

Now that afternoon

there was also

a team gathering

on Judith's agenda.

And while that place

is being found,

Judith actually

has a problem.

She's not doing well.

She took a bite

of her bread.

She starts to hyperventilate.

She's getting sick.

And that situation

escalates

very quickly.

So quickly

that Judith

loses consciousness.

She is taken

to the hospital

in an ambulance.

Judith also has a friend.

She is called

at the moment

that she is still

at her work.

She says

you have to get off

because it's not going well

with Judith.

And she carries

in that ambulance

to the hospital.

Yes.

Now

a heart scan

is being made

by her.

Judith

is still

not aware of this.

And while

the heart scan

gets her

a heart rate.

Doctors

try to

reanimate

her

to three times.

But

that doesn't work.

They no longer hit her.

And then

at 6.52

there is a

relief.

Now

the remarkable thing

is that

she still has

something to say

before they

arrive.

Namely

that

bread

doesn't

taste like

pindakas.

A short

bio

of Judith.

Judith

is Judith Noterman

and she was born

on 5 October

1972

in Paris,

France.

What

does she do there?

Her

parents

Eugène

a

Dutch

and Marijan

a

her

circumstances

of the

World�도

Movement.

And they

plan to

slice

her

into slices.

And

again,

snake.

It

is clear

how

she

has

reactin feelings.

Two

brothers

Thomas

and

Mathjas.

Thomas

has a very

special

group.

One

has

In 1977, the family moved back to the Netherlands, to Den Haag,

and finally they moved to Heerlen in Limburg, in the province of Limburg.

They moved to school, to the Brugklas, as it was written in the book.

It was very unfathomable for me, the Brugklas.

For me, it's something I know from watching television.

It's not a book, it's the Brugklassers.

I know it from Beugelbecky.

Oh, yes, yes, it's a Brugklass.

I can't say it, but I don't want to know.

I have no idea what the Brugklassers are.

There's a friend group,

with whom they've lived up to 30 years,

who will soon be.

Her friend is described as someone who cares for others,

who has that as a second nature.

Where did they spend their free time?

They went to Frank Bouye's concerts.

Do it, and the Dire Straits.

It seems fantastic to me.

At the end of middle school, it's very special.

They moved to Thailand, and they'll live in Bangkok

in the middle of the villages.

They have to be very educated.

A year after her friend starts her studies,

she goes to Utrecht, and she's going to study orthopedic pedagogy.

That's where she meets Jeroen, her first girlfriend.

She's a young girl who studies in A.A.,

but lives just across the border in the Netherlands,

so that's how we get to know each other.

While she's studying, she starts to work with vulnerable children.

She tells her about it.

She says, I act very seriously,

but I live for every millimeter of progress I make with my children's books.

She seems to be a very warm young woman who offers the other.

In 1997, she graduates.

She gets an immediate job at the RIAG in Cittard.

She's very attentive to friends and family during her free time.

With her, Boer Thomas takes various steps to the bioscope

and to the concerts of Ajax.

Everything seems to be going well in her life,

but suddenly her relationship with her great-loved Jeroen is over.

That's very difficult, because for Judith,

it was the man who took the rest of her life with her.

But on July 31, 1999, Judith learns new things.

After the round of heroes, I also googled them.

After the tour, there was a warrior competition

with a big party in the background.

Like you heard.

All the big athletes who have a mega sprint in Tour de France are there.

You can spot them.

After the round of heroes at the party,

Bart had to meet Judith, as you can see.

He's there with a girlfriend dancing.

He sees how spontaneous she is and how happy she is.

The dance moves will be gone in a minute.

And he talks to her and says,

I'll bring a present for you tomorrow morning.

He does that and it was confirmed.

It was confirmed, right?

Let's talk about Bart.

Bart was born on August 12, 1976 in Heerlen.

His father is a steamer, his mother is a housewife.

He also has a younger sister.

Now Bart is not as good as Judith is,

because he's been bullied a lot.

And I can't talk about that at home,

because there's no conversation about feelings in that family.

And there are obviously many rules that he has to follow.

He also leads that Bart is going to drink a lot later in life.

He started his studies, he studied technical science.

But he also keeps dreaming of a job at DSM.

That's a DeLimburg chemist.

And DSM says to himself,

we are renewers in food health and beauty.

And they develop, produce and combine

vital food, taste and smell

to make the growing world flourish.

And I've also read that they are a giant in enzymes and vitamins.

Many questions.

Many questions. It's not too fun yet.

What are you guys doing?

Something with vitamins and enzymes.

But good.

Good that they are there, actually.

Bart and Judith, from the beginning, can talk to each other very well.

I want to say something.

Something I have to laugh at.

About Bart, you said, his hobbies, his handball games and the internet.

I haven't heard that word since 2003.

The internet, yes.

I see myself writing in a friend's book.

What are your hobbies? The internet.

It's from 2008, the book.

Oh, okay, okay.

But it feels, indeed, very early 2000s.

So you guys still have kiddos? The internet.

My hobby is the internet.

So not the internet, the product, but the internet.

I've had it since then.

But it's still my hobby.

Let's go back. Bring back the internet.

Yes. Sorry, I interrupted you.

That's not very good.

Now, they can talk a lot from the beginning.

It's going pretty well.

Judith doesn't really talk about Gironne at all.

So she talks a lot about him.

But Bart, on his side, also has a former relationship

that he's still working on,

namely the one with his ex-fiend, Ellen.

She came to Ruzi to live in a car accident.

She's pretty strong.

So I think she's also talking about bondage.

Judith, when it comes to her work

and what she's all about,

she's talking about that tragic relationship with Ellen.

And after a year, they've decided to live together.

And Bart feels at home very quickly, with the Judith family.

He's seen as friendly, helpful, together.

But it's still closed.

He's never learned to communicate.

It will be intense, because in the start of your relationship,

all the two of you, with very big issues coming together,

it will be difficult to tell your open mind.

Yes, indeed, indeed.

Now, in the meantime, he's stopped drinking.

And here, indeed, I had...

He's on the internet a lot.

I thought it was going to be on the internet.

He's literally in a book.

Yes, indeed.

I thought, I'm not going to use the internet.

That happened. That's in 2008.

Now, it goes on.

They're buying a sphere-filled, 30-year-old apartment in January 2003.

So they're quite...

They're from 1999, together, if I'm not mistaken.

So going steady, if that's the case.

And they're buying that apartment just outside the centre of Heerlen.

And it's mostly Judith who's actually taking care of the interior.

A lot of flowers and plants are in the book.

But they just bought a house, that's just built in.

And Judith is starting to doubt about that relationship.

Yes, she's going to walk with her friend

and she talks about doubts for the first time.

And she says, look, I really want to get married

and I want to have children.

That's really the next step in my life.

But I'm not sure if Bart is ready for that.

I have the feeling that there's a bit of a back-to-back attitude

about the next step in our relationship.

And yes, that's never the case alone.

Because Bart, as you said, wants to work at DSM,

is trying to ask for it.

And it's basically cut off based on a psychological test.

It turns out that he's insecure and impulsive.

And that's really hard for him and it's cut off for Judith.

I can't really talk about that.

And on his current job, he's got a lot of stress.

And Judith feels like, OK, this isn't going well, Bart needs me.

So he decides to take a week off in July 2003

to spend time together with Bart.

And if he's going to eat at his parents' house during the week,

then he's going to lie down and say,

I'm doing fine, so my Bart is doing fine,

but my Bart himself is really not doing well at the moment.

No, he's cutting off more and more and more on the internet.

Now, right before her death, Bart calls Judith's parents

and says, look, your daughter is coming in.

It's going very badly with her.

So the parents are still going to the hospital.

But unfortunately, they have to see in the three of them

how Judith is actually going to survive.

Now Bart is talking to Judith's parents and he says,

look, last night,

they still had it, that we decided to get married and have children.

So according to Bart, everything went very well.

So everyone is really unexpected.

And Judith's parents also saw something like, fuck,

that's the second time he's lost his girlfriend

in a tragic way.

Now, it's like Judith decided,

look, I want to donate my organs.

So the doctors also ask,

the doctors ask the parents and Bart, look,

are we going to do that?

And they're giving you...

They're giving you permission.

So I don't know how that...

I think in Belgium, you're an automatic organ donor.

But I think in the Netherlands, you still have to click on

if you want to be an organ donor.

I think that's the difference, but I'm not 100% sure.

Now, as you can see, Judith has already given it.

She says, yes, do it.

And for that...

So actually, in the first instance, they're giving it all,

because it's mainly about giving them what they want to use.

Before they get rid of it, they're going to take off their blood.

And they're going to fill 10 holes.

What's actually logical, that's a young woman of 30

who's going to get rid of it,

you have to look at where that comes from,

a underlying cause.

So if it's not that strange, I think you'll have to research it.

Yes, indeed.

And she came through a hard state of life,

and indeed, they think it's weird.

So they actually want to research it,

and they also decide what blood to send to that toxicologist

next to the 10 holes they've already taken

for that research for organ donation.

Now, there's also an option, but they don't give it up.

And yes, okay, everything is put in place for the funeral.

They would be buried a week later.

A few of them would be buried together with the parents.

They're all put in place.

But then, suddenly, that toxicologist,

who got a bit of blood from Judith,

said, look, I found traces of caffeine and chocolate

in her blood, but also of unknown substances.

And we have a standard research here

where we can't trace it with us.

And that's in an article where the doctor comes up with the word.

I believe it's from the people's newspapers,

and in the morning, you also talked about the doctor

who had a lot of impact on her.

And that's also part of the word.

So the doctor tells that here,

and suddenly that toxicologist called to say something was wrong.

So she tells the doctor, look,

Judith's body was sent to the forensic institute in Rijswijk.

And there, they couldn't find anything suspicious.

And we also didn't have enough blood to be able to do the tests

until the doctor remembers that there's still a lot more blood,

because we've taken those 10 drops of blood off her.

So those words can still be studied.

And then they can actually determine the unknown substance,

it turned out to be cyanide.

So the conclusion is that they have to be forgiven.

Yes.

And there is a...

I want to make a little summary for Judith's colleague,

the employee of the month, or year, or forever,

because after Judith got involved in her work,

and with the ambulance,

a colleague took her bread and brought it with him.

And when it turns out that Judith would be guilty,

the employee of the month, year, forever,

comes up with that bread and says,

maybe we should also investigate this.

But what appears to be the sign for not finding cyanide?

No.

In the case with the ambulance,

and they do come up with a look,

we do know that the colleague says that it was made by Bart.

So then the alarm goes off.

Yes, and we know Bart is a chemist,

maybe we have to do something else after the investigation.

The day before the funeral of Judith, 31 July,

Bart was reminded of forgiveness.

Yes.

And they also have things to go on with that, of course.

Yes, because they actually went to his work.

And in his office they loaded two bottles of sodium azide

and teobromine.

And now I give people one second of the time.

If you say you're not a chemist, that should be cool,

because you now know what's going on, and we don't.

Yes. Okay, so for everyone who doesn't study,

wait, do I have to do this?

No, no, you have to do this, you have to do this.

But I had to do this, and I wasn't sure what that meant.

What does that mean?

But maybe people listen to our podcast.

And now they say, oh my God!

Okay, but now we have enough time.

And then you have an exam.

So, what do you do, two-stores?

If I explain it correctly, if I understand it correctly,

we're going to get a lot of DMs here.

Because Gemi is no longer a chemist.

So if those two substances, sodium azide and teobromine,

get in contact with the cancer,

does it appear to be cyanide?

Yes.

I didn't know.

I didn't know, I find it very dangerous.

Very much so.

So yes, the police finds that in his office,

the two substances that make cyanide.

Yes, but Bart says, yes, hello guys, I'm a chemist.

I work here in a chemist company.

Of course those substances are present here.

Why is it that they are in my office?

Even there I have a very good explanation.

I mean, there are a lot of schools on visit,

on a tour, and those are just two bottles

that are regularly lost out of the closet.

So I keep this in my drawer.

I wonder how many teenagers walk around with bottles of sodium azide

and teobromine, and how do they know that...

They get opium out of a chemist's closet, or what?

I don't know what's in a chemist's closet, but...

Or is this just a known chemist for me?

Yes, please don't tell all the best chemists

who listen to us that it's obvious information

that you get in your first class chemistry.

Yes, because then we're in a problem.

Then we're in a problem.

And that's going to make us...

That's going to make us take our diplomas off.

Hmm, I'm going to quit.

I'm not going to quit, I'm not going to quit, I'm not going to quit.

But yes, the police has said, okay, fair enough,

then maybe we're going to do a house-seeking at your house.

And the substances aren't being found there.

No, the house isn't on the board either.

No, no, no, the board isn't being found either.

So in that respect, Bart can still be wrong.

He keeps on arresting, he's being arrested, arrested, arrested, arrested.

But it's...

Yes, I'll say this 14 times more, because while he's being arrested,

on September 19th, Bart finally breaks up

and he's going to get to know about it.

Yes, he tells me.

I did put the sodium mazide and thetheobromine

on the board of the pindaca.

So literally only on that first bite.

That's why you didn't find anything on the rest of the board.

I had mixed it with the two products a week ago

in my juice.

On the feet.

On the feet.

Not just the two substances in his juice,

but I suspect in a bottle or in a bag.

Because after that, I put the rest behind the washing machine.

You didn't find it while looking for the house.

Not a lot of the time.

And I looked for the house after the day

because I thought you'd come back, threw it away in the bars.

And after he got to know, he went to look for the agent

and effectively found the rest

where he left it behind.

But the risk he took, because he threw it so randomly in the bars...

Maybe it was his garden.

Yes, but then again, there must be someone to pass by.

I mean, it's super dangerous stuff.

Even if he doesn't know what can happen with it,

there must be someone to get in there anyway.

I think it's a risk.

And also, the man first made that pindaca

and then a pencil bowl for himself.

I would make the mistake of using the same knife.

Oh, I would also lick that knife.

An extra pindaca.

It's morning.

The coffee hasn't gone yet.

Yes, the coffee hasn't gone yet.

It would come across to me like this.

So I think he took a few risks, because he didn't...

Yes, and the thing is, of course,

there's a lot of motivation from Bart.

And this really makes me so pissed off.

His first statements say that he doesn't know anymore

why he killed you.

I mean, he's not going to do that in a flag of duty, right?

You've prepared this for a week.

I mean, you've looked up the substances,

or maybe it's a paratocan, I know a lot,

but you've taken it with you, you've smeared it with bread.

You've gone to the hospital, you didn't intervene,

you didn't tell the doctors, you said, oh, sorry, it was me.

I mean, I don't know why I killed you,

but he's finally coming to the scene and says,

I saw a lot of pressure to become a father.

And this was the easiest solution.

Really, where does it go?

Do normal.

The police, oh, sorry.

No, no, no.

He says, yes, he also says that I was a huge fan

of making our relationship.

And I said, you're really pissed off.

But do you still get why he has so much to say?

I think so too.

I'm really pissed off at her.

So I can finish the relationship,

I can take my own life.

No, what I'm going to do is I'm going to become a friend.

Now, the police will also find out

that Bart has been living a double life for years.

Through the internet.

He has made regular agreements,

sexual agreements with other couples.

Apparently, he was already on the internet

after the death of Judith,

and in search of couples to talk to me.

And Judith's family and friends really fell behind

when they heard all that.

And yes, what he's saying is that he doesn't want to be a father.

This was the easiest solution.

Now, of course, there will be two

and they say, look, we think that Bart also has ASS.

In the first place, they say it's Asperger's syndrome.

I've learned that Asperger's syndrome is an older term.

And that's why we're talking about ASS,

the autism spectrum disorder.

But people who know more about this...

If we make a mistake, let us know.

Now, one of the perpetrators was Bart's behavior,

especially sent by those drunken thoughts

that Judith had to disappear

because he couldn't communicate about it.

So about the fact that we have to marry him, we have to have children.

So for him, it was, according to that doctor,

let me put it clearly,

I can't say that people with ASS are violent,

or that every person with ASS can't communicate.

But that's what this behavior is capable of.

He can't communicate about what he actually wants in his relationship.

So for him, it was the easiest solution to kill Judith.

He said, yes, so the lack of communication

is going on and on and on and on.

And he also felt threatened in that relationship.

So he went on to the end of the story.

Now, in 2004, on January 28th,

he started his process in Maastricht.

And Bart also took the word for it.

And he said, I wasn't doing well for months,

it didn't go well for a while,

so Judith and I, I end up more and more.

And he dropped a bomb.

I literally wrote it down.

He was turned into an ex in an old case.

He never existed.

What was the reason for Bart to resent Ellen?

Judith started talking a lot about her ex-friend.

I asked a friend to stay away from her.

So there, there, the...

Yes.

I don't want to say I understand it, but...

You also want to make a certain impression.

Yes, or I can understand it.

Especially because it seems very beautiful in the beginning,

when we were talking about it,

of two people in a row who strengthen each other

in a positive way,

working together on what they're doing.

And maybe Bart was afraid.

He was like, I can't... I can't put that weight on the table.

So I have to resent something.

I have to resent something.

While I think he probably doesn't have the easiest time at home,

he was able to be open about so many things.

He was able to talk to me.

I think Judith was the perfect person for him.

He was someone who was very empathetic,

so involved with other people.

So he understood everything.

Do you have to resent a story to make yourself interesting?

Amazing. The parents in the hospital said,

oh, this is your second girlfriend you've lost.

I mean, I would shame myself so much.

I would shame myself so much.

But he also says,

it's true that Judith and I have experienced a lot of pain,

and that he would like to turn it back.

And he doesn't even understand

that he put the button on Sunday to do it.

I didn't hear him say it,

but I do think he's really ashamed.

I believe so, too.

I do believe so.

The Office of Justice, we know that here as the public prosecutor.

That doesn't mean that Ellen maybe did do it.

Yes, I think this is such a strange chronicle.

And it suggests that Bart has forgiven his previous girlfriend,

but there's no proof of it.

I don't think they really found anything in that investigation.

And it seems like you want to make a serial killer.

Yes, and you can also find out very quickly

whether Ellen has existed or not.

No, I don't think so.

But he still has a good contact with his family.

Yes, but you've never seen him.

I know that.

Anyway, I mean, this case is about the murder of Judith.

Let it be.

Yes, indeed.

Maybe we should bring this up another time.

Now, for the murder...

Not now, I'm talking about the murder.

I'm talking about you, too.

You tell us this as much as you want.

The Office of Justice says,

for the murder of Judith,

I'm in prison for 12 years plus TBS.

And the tank...

I've also looked for something,

because we often mislead it.

So I've looked for something.

You're doing well.

Oh my God, before I use such a bad website.

Okay, so TBS is the abbreviation of the murder case.

TBS is a case that has been sentenced to death

or personality or personality.

It's a case that is charged with a safe return

of perpetrators in society.

And the judge decides whether a perpetrator

gets a mental disorder,

a mental disorder,

or in danger of rape.

So it's like, okay, you have to be punished,

but you also need help.

That's why we're talking about TBS.

And the help is at the same time with the prison sentence?

No, it doesn't have to be.

And they also said to Bart,

I want you to do your prison sentence first,

and then TBS will do it.

So you have to prove what you did first

and then we'll help you.

I think that's a bit of a general reasoning.

But maybe I misunderstood that part.

I do know that there is effective court punishment.

Okay, because two weeks later,

it's said that not until 12 years old,

like you said,

but until six years of prison sentence plus TBS,

the court will still be in office,

and Bart will get the eight-year prison sentence with TBS.

That was in 2004.

So Bart is already running around again.

Yes, of course you don't know.

I can be a TBS, also a prison sentence.

That might be possible.

I regret a lot of that prison sentence.

And I know that in Belgium life is not long,

life is long and 30 years is not 30 years.

But six years is really special, can I say that?

Yes.

Yes, but I also think it's because it's a combination

with a story, indeed.

And that the man before the prison sentence is at TBS.

Absolutely.

Then at the prison sentence.

But I just regret the sentence.

That's what I'm talking about.

I have a little bit more to say about the doctor

who convinced you about this.

And she says, since then I'm more on my toes

than expected about suffering.

I take the scar faster in where the blood is often from.

Because you see, this was not solved without the extra blood,

so that they can still do some research later.

And she also says, a young woman who leaps away

under our hands, our forgiveness attempts

to get what was with her on the hand,

the sad panic of her parents.

That has made all of this deep impression on me and my colleagues.

And then that friend at her bed, so busy and drunk,

while he knew that he was looking for a poisonous boat

that had smelt for her.

In the last few hours before her death, he began to talk to her murderers

and that still filled me with despair.

He had nearly killed the perfect person,

but because she donated her organs, he was still unmasked.

I thought it was super beautiful and super solid,

but I find it very terrifying

that when you die on your 30th,

in a hospital with such intense hyperventilation,

a clear reaction to something

that was not found at all for the same reason.

That this could have just happened.

But the first toxicological research has indicated

that we can't identify at this moment.

And so it was lucky that they still had the other stale blood.

But I do think there is enough action to take back the past,

because they could have just said,

yes, heart stillness.

And without further research to do.

Because the family could have also said,

we don't want autopsy or we don't want further research,

or I mean, I think Bart was also shocked by that.

Oh, shit.

Those are all factors that the man didn't really consider.

Yes, he went for the perfect murder.

I mean, if you take two products so securely,

that no cyanide is on the tip of a pot,

then they...

I think so.

They just had to start on the other side of their bread

and I didn't eat it all up.

And he was still alive.

That was on one tip of the bread.

Yes, I think that's really breaking.

And that's maybe what's not just disturbing me,

but what's really bothering me in those six years.

For me, it's really a murder to think about.

That's planned, that's executed, that's...

Yes, that's what I thought.

It wasn't, oh, oops.

I didn't mean that.

Or, yes, I was angry and I mean, that's not natural either.

But that's a flag and an appeal.

Here it's thought over, here it's executed, here it's...

It's just pure murder.

Yes, indeed.

And that's why I think it's so disturbing.

In my opinion, they're very mild in those years of punishment.

Because I hope that Bart will get a good treatment

and will learn to communicate emotionally.

And yes, we know that this is not the solution.

Yes, the Pindaka's murder.

Yes, that's what it's called.

So thank you, but I don't know it yet.

I eat Pindaka every morning.

That's good, I like it.

Also with the Hagen slag or without it.

Oh, no, I'm doing my Havermount.

Oh, okay.

Yes, but I would eat Pindaka on everything.

Yes, delicious.

Do you also like ice cream?

No, that's speculoos, nevermind.

No, I get it.

I thought there was also Pindaka's.

Oh, no.

It does exist anyway.

It does exist anyway, you didn't find anything new here.

Do you smear the butter at me sometimes?

Very often.

But yes, you're also the cook at home.

I don't have to smear the butter at home.

No, I cook at home.

Me too.

Hey, Lukas.

But I don't have access to the chemicals for her work, so...

No, I wanted to see if she could get rid of that.

If you wanted to buy that or something.

I think it's a coincidence that we're bringing in a male killer.

Yes, indeed, yes, that's right.

In fact, there are women who do that.

But if we... I don't know Bart very well,

but I understand that he doesn't want to be a killer.

If I can understand his character a bit,

it doesn't seem like someone who wants to confront the killer.

I mean, he doesn't want to be a killer.

Sometimes you can forgive him at home,

but the fact that he does that, so that he doesn't have to see it...

But then, knowing that your girlfriend leaves you for work,

you go to work yourself as well.

And then, okay, now it's time to wait.

Yes, I find that difficult.

Just carry it out and then wait.

That's also a kind of cool blood, isn't it?

Yes, yes, yes.

That's why I don't say that with the exception of the right thing.

Or something like that.

Very interesting.

Very interesting thing.

Thank you all for suggesting it.

He really got mad at you.

Yes, really.

I'm never going to say anything more about a murder weapon.

Oh, would there be something with it?

Yes, or yes, because we did get a nice guy, of course.

So guys, that was it for today.

Was it again, hope for better?

Yes, hopefully it will change without this episode coming out.

Fingers crossed. Thank you for listening.

Love you all.

Love you. Bye bye.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.