de volksjury: Aflevering 107 - Eva Weinfurtner

Welcome to episode 106 of The Volksguri.

We are Laura Enselke and all the two of us, as you can see in a hand.

Our manager is going to like it.

Yes.

Look, where it is, we've already said it.

Excuse me.

Who's calling now?

That's Anik, I can pick up.

Yes, do that.

On the podcast.

Live.

Anik.

Hello?

Did you forget a key, guys?

Okay, I'm going to open the door.

Anik, I forgot a key.

It's live on the podcast.

I'm coming, bye.

Take care, we're worried.

Ah, she's doing it anyway.

She's inside, she's inside.

It's all okay.

Where are we?

Sick.

I think a combination of we have a second live show behind the scenes, which was super fun.

That was great.

Very funny.

Very funny for the people who are still coming.

There is a bit added, Silke, out of my comfort zone.

And she was also so nice to be here afterwards, to ask everyone if the piece should stay in.

Yes, then no.

The stage rehearsal has remained that it should.

Yes.

So, yes.

You should notice it when you come.

Yes, when we're happy.

When we're happy.

But I think it's a really good moment to be sick, because we don't have a show this week.

No, that's it.

Fortunately.

So we're just thinking about what to do, but that's just...

It's the next week.

Yes.

Yes.

Let's hope.

Let's hope.

How about the rest of you?

For the rest, yes, my life is just in the drawing of what we're going to do here at the moment.

But yes, we have also been to Lizzo.

Yes.

What was that?

That was cool.

That was good.

That was cool.

And then the day after, we went to a birthday party with a friend.

And that was in a...

That's called the jump sky.

And that's really...

Yes, sort of like a air castle.

But then with a tour.

I was broken after five minutes.

I thought, where did I start?

Yes.

But it was really good to get rid of all the stress.

Get rid of it.

Yes, yes, yes.

That was great.

So I'm just doing it again.

And yes, now you have to say the consequences of it.

That was funny.

Also good, also good.

I thought, we have said that one second before the recording.

Let us have it over 1985.

Absolutely.

We haven't done that yet.

We haven't done that yet.

We talked about it briefly at Studio Brussel over there,

when it just came out.

What do you think of it?

I think it's because I know something about it.

I think it's good.

I really think a lot about it.

I have to say, Annik, that I say,

oh yes, I know that.

And last Sunday we also watched it.

And Annik said,

are you going to say something every time you get to know something?

Say, oh yes, yes.

Certainly.

And then I'll keep doing it.

I'm super proud of it.

For me, this is really ten weeks long.

An exam, or eight weeks long.

An exam.

And every week I test myself to know what's still coming.

Exactly.

Who came up with it.

Exactly.

So I think dropping, love it.

It will be.

I also think it's good that we got it.

With the main roles.

Yes.

And that doesn't necessarily come as easily in the picture.

Yes, those are really factual things that are being mentioned.

Yes.

So I think it's very entertaining.

What do you think of it?

Yes, I think it's very entertaining.

Yes, I think it's entertaining.

I think it might even be a better history than the story of Vlaanderen.

That's what it is.

For many people.

But I'm really curious where we're going to be.

I have a theory.

I have already said it to him.

I'm not going to beat him.

I can say at the end of the day that's what I thought.

But I'm very curious.

And I think it's very punishable that the makers choose such an explicit piece in the band.

It's clear that they are in the direction of the Rijkswacht and the loose figures that are in there.

Looking at it, I find it very difficult.

Yes, I also think that's great.

And what I also like is that my dad sent it.

I think it's exactly 20 years.

Yes, so the time machine works.

Yes, absolutely.

So I understand that you have to choose a theory.

It's not going to be different.

And this is an interesting piece to visualize when it's done.

And I like to hear from my dad how he looks at it.

And then I can compare it to how I look at it and how Anik looks at it.

Because he doesn't know anything.

He absolutely doesn't know anything about the four episodes of The Binnen van Heivel.

That's how it goes.

And I ask her, but do you think it's exciting enough?

Because there's a lot of information.

A lot of information, yes.

Your head explodes after such an episode.

Exactly.

And she says, yes, I think it's really interesting.

And she says, yes, I'm still fascinated.

Win, win for everyone.

And I want to make a small shout-out to the music.

And how precisely that is...

That amuses me again.

That amuses me.

That amuses me.

Here are some tips.

No, I'm sitting in the middle of a podcast.

So I'm going to sit down for a while.

We have a sponsor this week.

It's called Hello Fresh.

And after the success story of Anik last time, I thought, OK.

I'm going to do that.

Let's try this at home.

I want to give context.

For example, Lukas doesn't know where the trip is.

At home? No, today.

Yes, that's right.

Today we have to ask where the trip is.

No, I had, in our last podcast,

Lukas worked a lot at home.

So I had one of the recipes that I chose as a snack.

Then he could make it for himself in the afternoon.

And so in the morning I said, lovingly, funny.

And is that going to work?

Is that going to work?

Is that going to work?

And then she was angry at me.

So I can make a snack.

5 for 12 came to the gym.

I still have a question about the tonnein in the eye that was in here.

I just had a whole bag in the fridge.

And so the oil in the tonnein eye was stolen.

So you saw that.

I have to admit it.

He sent a photo of, is this normal?

Because Lukas has a different, I have to say, fear.

He thinks that everything is going to get bad.

Oh yeah, okay.

But I understand that.

He buys charcuterie and the day after he thinks,

I don't know if I'm going to eat this again.

So yes, he sees the tonnein, he thinks he can do this.

But so after that little confirmation that he needed,

is it successful?

Then I got a photo of a finished bag.

And then he sent it.

And then he sent it.

And he was still happy about it.

So look, really where everyone can do it.

Yes, yes, yes.

We have now really done it.

Yes, that's it.

You know, you do such a test,

and then they have to do the solution that the rule,

but it doesn't work.

It really looks like everyone.

Very interesting if there are people who have already failed

in a HelloFresh recipe.

Let it know.

Let it know and try it.

We have, as always, a discount code.

We can give 75 euros discount on your first three boxes,

which is for new customers and old HelloFreshers.

If you have said your monthly salary three months ago,

you go to the website and you can enter the code

HelloJury75, all in capital letters.

And then you get 75 euros discount on your first three boxes.

That is HelloJury75.

Let's go.

Sure.

Hop.

On to the business.

Yes, you chose it.

I chose it.

I missed Keith Morrison's suit voice.

So I thought I'm going to check out some dates.

I found the inspiration for this episode.

It's about the murder of Eva Weinfurtner.

Do you think it's hard to say the murder?

We have to cut it.

No, we don't have to cut it.

People can know that.

But it's just in the title.

I know it.

No, but I want to say, is it a murder?

I'm alluding to that.

Ah.

Look at that.

I'm not with the pink.

No, because I'm sick.

BDB.

We don't know where this is going to go.

So let's go now.

Bioc.

Biotje.

So we are on Friday, September 28, 2001.

Eva Weinfurtner and Steven Otto Wright are on their way to Catalina.

That is an island in front of the coast of California.

For a romantic tour.

I didn't know that there are islands in front of the coast of California.

And that looks beautiful.

But that was a bit of a challenge in my opinion.

Exactly.

Italian vibes.

So I think I'm going to go there.

Yes, I want to.

We post a photo.

Eva Weinfurtner is 42 years old at the moment.

And she went on a date line to write as

Lovely, Magnetic and Exotic.

And I wrote two questions behind her.

What?

I also wrote what she said.

And that's really classic.

Not a classic date line, but classic.

This is a true crime story.

When she entered, she lied up her room.

That's always the case.

And that's always the person who goes.

She lied up her room.

Exactly.

And she worked as a stewardess.

And she made her own U-wail.

Loved it for her.

And her friends wrote to her.

Look, she actually lived as if she was 22 years old.

Without worries.

She lied up her room.

And she always liked her.

She always asked me to do something.

She called her and I got help.

She also always told me that you could feel better.

Eva had two thigh in her back.

Her third thigh didn't hurt completely either.

She was separated from her hubby number 3.

There is also a Levi N II plus one with hubby number 3.

Alex N. Maxx.

Hubby number 3 was also a pilot.

I think it's very classic.

The stewardess and the pilot, I think.

And Steven Otto Reitz.

He was the miner of Eva and 25.

How do we know each other via the son of Eva, via Levi?

Yes, so Steven comes to visit to hang out with Levi at home.

And he meets Eva there.

There was constant chemistry between the two of them.

But it must be pretty awkward for Levi that you're standing there

and your mother-in-law is there.

No, that's his real mother.

Even worse, your mother-in-law is there.

Because it's not about life, no judgment.

No, but you don't want to be there as a son,

or as your mother and your friend vibe.

It's a bit awkward.

But your friends say, with 17 years of age, she was the ultimate cougar.

And Steven did some weird jobs,

because he's a fisher in the commercial fishery.

So not in his spare time?

Maybe.

But it's not that he went to a farm.

No, he was really on a boat.

Yes, okay.

Let's have a look.

How did it start with those affairs?

Yes, because her friends said they felt restless.

They were a bit confused.

They were looking for her as 22 years old.

And they were looking for her in everything in her life.

And her marriage wasn't bad,

but it was just a flat marriage

where there are no highs and no lows.

So she said, an affair has come true.

And Steven is the ideal candidate for an affair.

It's a young guy who has a lot of time.

He doesn't have a fixed job,

so he has a lot of time to take little steps.

Little vacation trips.

He really likes to play, so he often stays home for days.

So he also has time to spend time with him.

Yes, and he knew she was married.

But he's still going through it.

Wait, let's have a look.

So those months go by, the affairs continue to last.

In the secret, Eva says she brings two friends

to the head of those affairs.

And one of those friends, April, was also really asleep to Steven.

Yes.

But she also saw that he was having a hard time,

but I was asleep to Steven.

She was a bit in a dupy,

but the feeling that Steven gave her,

she said that she described it as a pressure,

where she always went back,

where she didn't really look away.

Indeed.

April 28th is April, right?

Eva's girlfriend has a phone call.

Eva said, look, I know you have a point of order.

I'm coming. I'm coming to help.

Sunday.

The last things to do, to bring the baby room in order.

Exactly.

But that Sunday comes and she goes.

So April has something to do with it.

Yes, because normally I can always talk to Eva.

And also, April knew that Eva and Carl

would leave the week after to Catalina.

Carl is right.

Carl is right, the pilot.

Because he really wanted to work on it.

Of course.

Yes, it's really like this affair is fun,

and I'm happy about it,

but I also have a habit that I actually want to save.

Yes.

But right after that, the phone call with April

seems that she didn't call Carl,

but to Steven,

or he didn't want to leave Catalina now.

Yes.

So I can't wait to go to Catalina.

I understand when I see the photos.

But she wants to go there first, less,

and then the week after, she really wants to go there.

Yes, exactly.

And so Sunday comes and goes.

And April doesn't see Eva.

But she thinks at first,

she will still have fun with Steven.

Yes.

But nothing is less true.

Because...

Monday in October.

Monday in October.

Sorry, but you said that April was the end of September.

Excuse me.

Yes, it's September.

April in April, September.

No problem.

Monday in October.

Oh my God, it's so crowded now.

Yes, I hope you can still follow.

So we are in America.

The main characters are Eva and Steven.

Okay, so Monday in October, it's a cold morning.

There are two Los Angeles county sheriffs with the helicopter.

So it goes down the road to Santa Catalina.

They received a call from the fire department.

There they are.

With the participation that there was a young man in the fire department

who called to say that my girlfriend is dead

and I think I killed her.

The fire department are in shock and so are the two sheriffs.

Because it was the first murder in 20 years in Santa Catalina.

Yes, special.

Special, right?

So the fire department is going to the hotel.

It's Casa Marquita Hotel.

I looked it up at 7.9 on booking.com.

Oh, it can be better, but it's a murder case.

7.9, I hope it gets an 8.

If I filter it, it's an 8 plus.

That's my search on the right.

7.9, if I think I don't have so much budget, then...

As long as there's no shit in the shower, it's fine.

So they went to Casa Marquita Hotel

for those who still want to search.

They see Eva lying there, all the help comes later.

The first assumptions are that her cake was broken on three places.

There was a shield,

while her shoulder was broken as a spot.

Her shoulder was out of the way.

She was lying on her hand again.

But she came to life because she was stuck in her neck and spine.

So that's not a pretty picture.

No, what's clear is that it's not about a short attack,

but that it should have been effective.

Then the description of the crime scene.

Eva from The Speuders in Kleinbebloed, Zackmiss.

There was also a cap on the flower pot,

where they thought it probably hit the head with the dada.

We found out that it was actually a very nice evening.

Yes, you saw the crime scene,

and for the rest it's the party room.

There's a empty bottle next to the bed,

which is used for various beer bottles on the ground.

There's a 5-dollar billet.

Just for the show.

They tested it, but it was effective.

It was used to cut cocaine for something else.

Also on the table, the rest of the people found cocaine.

Card...

Play cards for a game.

I don't get it.

Do you know what a scorebook is?

Probably to keep the score.

I've been thinking for a long time that it was a songbook.

A score.

To sing together.

But what you say is logical indeed.

If I see what else is found.

Yes, the cards.

It was also cool.

I think so too.

But it actually looks like

there was a lot of fun in the room.

And then you have the bloody crime scene next to the bed.

So that's special.

Yes, so they ask you how this could end in a murder.

So back to Steven.

Yes, he's going to be accused.

Steven is really too popular to explain what's going on.

What they think is strange in the first place.

He's not running away.

He also said in the first explanation,

I think I have something to do with it.

Yes, um, special.

Yes, so Tennis and Verrore said that he had dreamed.

How he had Ruzzi with someone.

But he thought it was a break-in.

And Steven says, I feel threatened by one of the reasons.

But it had nothing to do with Eva.

That it had to do with that dream.

But I thought it was a break-in.

I wasn't particularly interested in dreaming about Eva, I think.

But he suddenly woke up, he says.

And, um...

And then he's sitting right on the bed.

So he's now awake.

And then he suddenly sees a wound in Eva's neck.

And that's why he says,

it started with the days when I was responsible for the wounds.

When I did what I had to do when I was on high,

how we killed them.

We took a knife and cut through the back of the neck.

But because we couldn't reach the high, I didn't know either, by the way.

Very interesting.

So Steven's conclusion is,

I had to do it.

I thought it was one of the break-ins.

But I don't remember any more of that attack.

I see everything in small pieces.

A lot of people, a lot of people.

And he says, it's hard to believe,

but there are people who have already seen me sleepwalking.

So he suggests,

I have sleptwalked and Eva has been murdered.

He was taken to the police station for further interrogation.

And his parents were also raped and called up.

And those people confirmed that he didn't have a history of sleepwalking.

They also saw him sleepwalking,

for sure one or two times.

They also shared that he was in treatment for a bipolar disorder.

And when Steven was mentioned by the detectives,

by the researchers, he said, that's right.

And I forgot to take my medication for that a while ago.

Because, of course, in a certain direction,

he shows, and his mother can also effectively describe

the apothecary,

where a kind of calming substance is used

to treat such a bipolar disorder.

So that confirms the story that he is in treatment for that.

Yes.

Let's see what else I have here.

So he also says, at some point I can go home now

with my parents and the police.

Then suddenly your daughter becomes a very small child.

Yes, she's only 25.

I know, but even then,

I had to land in prison for...

Or something that you don't know very well.

I think I would ask my parents very quickly.

First of all.

Yes, I think that earlier than Lucas,

because I think I'm ashamed of Lucas.

And I think my mom can help me better.

She can help me better, but she knows what I have to do.

But she's totally not.

No, my mom says,

Scherling, what have you done?

My dad would even say, Advocate.

Advocate, Advocate.

And right away he has an IV.

That would be nice.

They're standing for a dilemma, the spoilers.

Because if he had done it,

when he was walking to sleep,

could he be judged for that?

Or would he be released for that?

Or is it all a lie?

And did he just kill himself completely?

So that's a bit what they have to find out now.

They don't get the least out of that.

I've written down a few people here.

Oh, how do you say that?

I don't have his name, but there's a story.

So, apart from the ordinary psychologists and researchers,

they get a researcher connected with the University of Stanford,

who is a world-recognized sleep disorder expert.

So I have a name here, Ellen Evidan. Is that him?

Maybe someone else.

So someone who keeps up with the research of people

with sleep disorders every day.

He takes our Stefan with him to his clinic,

hangs him on the monitor, lets him fall asleep

and actually puts cameras all night on his bed.

And the tests actually come out in the front of Stefan,

because it's effective.

The tests indicate that he has an ability to sleep,

that he does that, but that it even goes further.

It's called night terror.

We don't know how you actually tell that.

It's more or worse than a nightmarish, I think.

Yes.

So the fact that he gets that in the night that he's in the hospital

is also attached to the camera.

So the world-recognized sleep disorder expert

has something to do with the story that he tells you.

Stefan says that could be true.

Yes, the fact that he's bipolar

also has an extra factor to play with.

So it could have been that he thought that night terror was there,

that he thought there was an intruder,

that he tried to defend himself against that person,

and then he started to stamp and kick,

and then Eva with it got used to it.

And is it possible to kill that person too?

Yes, says the doctor, it's very exceptional,

but it can happen for sure.

Yes, he also mentions that, I've written it down again,

that the alcohol and drugs on the crime scene

also strengthen things like that.

So the doctor says, if you're completely sober,

you might be able to sleep, but you won't be able to reach that night terror.

But the cool thing is that you're already with someone with a bipolar disorder.

There, heart lickers like tequila and beer, and cocaine,

that can of course be done quickly in a certain fear-like direction.

So the science actually shows that the story of Stephen

could be true, but it's difficult for the investigators,

they find it difficult.

Yes, because he's being attacked anyway.

What I also understand, it's not the only clue you can have here.

They accuse him of first-degree murder,

and they say it's risky that they do that.

Maybe it was better to go for a death sentence,

because you don't have the intention to kill someone at a death sentence.

So then there's more chance that he'll get a sentence,

because if he doesn't get a sentence for first-degree murder,

then he can really be acquitted.

Well, the thing is...

I don't know, I think it's super logical

that he's going to be acquitted for first-degree murder.

Because he's going to get a sentence,

and I think...

We'll get back to that later.

I think I have to sit in the jury

and find it very difficult to tell the scientific story

that the science is, to follow it.

We know that Stephen went to the fireman this morning,

but he had a lot of time to think about something.

Yes, and the plaintiff also says,

I would rather try the case and lose it,

let them present their defense as sceptical as I am,

and we don't prove it, and the defendant walks, so be it.

What I just don't get is that they don't stay looking, as investigators,

for an expert who speaks against it.

Yes, it always happens. In all those cases, someone...

A doctor says, yes, that person wasn't accountable,

and then it always happens that someone else has something else.

He says, you have so many experts who speak against each other,

on the surface of DNA, blood, mental conditions.

They worked hard on it.

There were three prosecutors on the case.

I find it so strange that they didn't look for anyone.

I can't imagine that there is no other doctor

who would say the opposite.

But they did find a motive in the meantime.

Because it's been a long time, maybe that's not the case.

Yes, that's possible.

They thought for a long time, why would Eva want to die?

She knows that you're in an affair.

Yes, but Steven also said that to the players.

Look, Eva and I, we're crazy in love, we're never russians.

But apparently there have been a few incidents,

a few months before Eva died.

At some point, Eva said to Steven,

I don't want you to come in with me,

but at some point in the night, her window is closed.

And she also put the window in.

And she's also a very big girl.

I don't know what that means.

Well, that's not what she meant.

No, and Eva did a kind of attack on the police.

She was still in the night.

Steven was then invincible.

Later, she was picked up by another police patrol,

because she was drunk driving.

She was stuck in the cell at night.

But who's going to take her out of there?

Eva.

So it was, I think, a story of attack and death.

Shut up.

The classic.

And then there was another incident.

Like there was a family member, I don't think it was Eva.

She said to me, Eva told me about a night that she had with her,

that she woke up, and that Steven was on top of her.

And that he was actually on top of the mountain.

He was in a very strange behaviour.

And now he doesn't think, was it another night?

Or was it another story to kill her?

Of course, that can be the two sides.

Of course, it can also be proven that he did indeed sleepwalk.

But I think the incident here, that he's going through the window,

I really think that's against him.

Yes, absolutely.

And then, as the last one, I wrote down that when Eva died,

she was found back, she was called to her family.

So also to her uncle, and to her uncle,

she said that to her daughter, that Eva was dead.

And she, so that night, actually replicates it,

because Steven didn't kill her.

While she didn't know anything.

So that feeling of the night, it's Steven.

Yes, because they also know that he also had a dark side.

Then it's said that he had a temperament.

He had a history of being brave against her.

Sometimes they saw Eva family members

and then it turned out that they had blue spots on their bodies.

And then they said, yes, but Eva explained that she was coming

through the sex we had, or that there was always a explanation

for why they had blue spots or why they had pain at a certain point.

But yes, it's what you're saying, that the night had a feeling of

it can only be that Steven did it.

Yes, and despite the good advice of her friends,

Eva actually leaves in the wind for a while,

she realizes that there is something wrong in her relationship.

So what do you do if you give all the good advice

from the world already to you?

Then you go to the medium, anyway.

Always a good idea.

I would never call Lucas or your parents, just medium.

If they were picked up for a murder, they would just

say stand there, call them.

Anyway.

What would you do? What do you see for me?

Then they say, know and look, that's fine, do it.

No, but Eva calls, no, Eva doesn't call.

Eva goes to a medium for advice,

but before Eva starts telling,

she says to herself,

it can be that you are in a relationship with a young man

and that that man is not your real friend.

And Eva says, yes, that's true and it's weird that you know that.

And the medium answers, look,

if you don't make up with that person,

he will kill you.

Well, I'm not a believer in the medium.

The one thing about the other, they have interesting things to say.

I do think so, I do think so.

But Eva didn't follow the advice, or did she?

Because that's what some researchers think about here.

They think that Eva,

that week before she really invited me to Catalina,

she said, okay, I want to work with her,

I just have to make a shift.

And Eva took Steven with her to Catalina

to tell him that it's the last time they will see each other

that there is such a rush and that he killed her.

That's the theory that they step into the court.

Yes, indeed.

And Steven stays in the middle of it,

he even keeps his story to the right.

I was really in the sleep, I can't remember anything.

She was suddenly dead next to me.

And I think the right side is only three years later.

And it's about, is it an accident or is it murder?

Yes, because the evidence is not there.

There are no witnesses, there are no witnesses.

We know that he did it, he never recognized it.

He will never recognize that he was trying to break in with her.

He finds out everything that the sources say,

but that's the only difference that he really says

that I was in the sleep that night.

He was 28 years old,

and there was a description of how he looked when he saw the right side.

He was calm, he didn't feel threatened,

sometimes you can have him, but you can see him in the right side.

You really think you're inside.

He was so calm.

And they say, you look like a nice little schoolboy.

I don't know if that's what people want to say about you.

But he had a hair cut, his hair was well cut.

And that was just a young guy.

And many people, when they look at him, they see that he didn't do anything.

But that really says nothing.

So what you say,

even if he didn't recognize the right side, that he was trying to break in,

or that he was responsible for those blue spots

that Eva's family had seen.

And he also says,

look, sometimes I take it too hard,

but it's like going to a doctor and saying, Steven,

and to ask why I got so easily blue spots,

says Steven.

So Eva would like to know how that works.

That I get blue spots so quickly,

but there's really nothing on my hand.

Voila, then the defense comes to the word.

Let's see what they said about that.

They have a medical expert from Stanford with them.

Oh, of course, yes.

So he explains, on a scientific basis,

how it can be that people sometimes do terrible things

with their underwear in their sleep.

But he shows the tests that he did with Steven.

He shows how he's sleeping.

There's been asked by him,

can you fake it?

Can you do it in your sleep?

Can it be that he faked those tests at you?

Why does the doctor's resolution say,

no, what you see here is not fake, and can you not fake it?

You're in your REM sleep, and you can't fake that.

No, Voila.

The trial takes three weeks.

And at the end of those three weeks,

it's up to the jury to decide.

And they're going to be in there for another half a day.

So, Nubili, two seconds to think about what they're going to do.

Sorry.

It was a surprise for me, too.

Yes, for me, too.

Also because I thought about it on the road in the car.

And I don't think I'd be guilty.

Me neither.

It just had to be based on his explanation.

But that art...

That's a good art.

A good art.

I mean, there are video images that the man clearly shows what he can do.

But it doesn't mean he's not guilty of murder,

but he's guilty of murder.

And he has to deal with it, because he's going to kill his bed next to him.

But I don't know if it's the right way for him

to go on with his life.

Because he's been there for 25 years.

He was 25 at the moment.

I wouldn't want to be his cellmate.

You're going to be his cellmate. I wouldn't dare.

But that means he's going to be released in his 50s.

Because in America you have to pay full penalty.

But that still means he's still alive.

Yes, it's a hope that he's going to be treated there, too.

That's what America is to say.

But I was also the whole time at Schipper,

while I was doing the research.

He was conscious, he was unconscious, he was asleep.

And yes, it can happen.

I was sleeping too, and I was doing weird shit.

Good to know.

Good to know, because you were sleeping like a weird shit.

I was right, I was lying down, I was talking, I was asleep.

I used to go on stage, I went to the bathroom.

And suddenly I was in the fuse.

No idea, I was like, I used to go down the stairs.

And now I'm not anymore, but I'm sitting right next to him and saying,

I'm not going down the stairs, I'm not going down the stairs.

That's all from that point of view.

And that's really my biggest fear, that something like that will happen to me.

That I'm going to do something like that, because I don't know anything about it.

I also wonder, I hope there's a sleeping expert listening to me.

What do I have to do to avoid this?

Yes, but what do you have to do with someone sleeping?

Because apparently you shouldn't wake him up.

I never had any problems with that.

I always used to do that, when I lived with my parents and I was 10 years old.

Then I went to the bathroom to sleep.

And then my mom said, Silke, you're going to sleep.

Go back to your bed.

And then I got angry, because I felt uncomfortable.

But I can't sleep. That was my reaction.

I was woken up, but there's no...

Where I think, that's really not allowed. I don't know why that's not allowed.

Yes, I think that's so funny, things you can do when you're asleep.

That's funny.

One of the things that I, as a child, have...

I slept at the hotel. I also had to go abroad.

I slept with my parents in the same room.

And suddenly in the middle of the night, they were like,

I can taste everyone.

I can taste everyone, that's really nice.

I've said it before, that we're on a big case.

It's super random, that Anik is really looking for a way to know what she's saying.

And I really don't know if she's going to lie, sometimes.

That's really creepy.

I thought I didn't do that anymore.

Until I got together with Anik and...

And then you seemed to do that.

Very often. Very often.

I'm curious, are there people who do such things when they're asleep?

I think a lot.

You also have that woman on TikTok, who films herself.

I always have to laugh at her.

That's good.

If she snows like that, that she's terrasse like she's in a house.

I haven't done that yet. I'm not that extreme.

But I'm also a little weaker with my clothes on and so on.

When I was about to go to school, I thought I was going to go to school.

But it's time to go to school.

Full on.

I thought you were doing it.

So yes, of those weird things.

But to say, with Steven, I went...

You know what? I had another podcast that was also directed by someone.

I also said, my stomach feels like that person did it.

But something in me says, I don't want to be directed if it's not 100% sure.

So if I'm in the jury debate, I would debate a lot.

But I still hope that I'm the only one who's against it.

But I don't have it.

It's not my responsibility.

But look, it does have to do with the intention.

Accident.

Yes, it's about the intention.

And anyway...

Yes, it does have to do with someone's life.

Yes, but I think the fact that he was 25 years old,

I think he had to be aware of his goal.

That was his life plan.

So I don't think I've found it yet.

But I think there's a lot to keep in mind in the debate.

Yes, that's a very tough thing to do.

That you could kill someone who's asleep now.

It's certainly not the first thing that came up.

We've come across a few people who are very interested in our research.

Yes, I...

Of course it's very well-nourished, even if it's...

And very fast.

Very fast.

And also knowing.

And with the bipolar systems he has.

So the fact that he didn't try to escape,

and that he speaks in his advantage, I think.

Yes, because it was...

Okay, people knew that they had an affair, but no one knew about their escape.

No, that's right.

So he could have left too.

We weren't in 2001, DNA wasn't yet very active in the world.

If he wasn't checked under his name, there were possibilities.

So that's the fact that he's going to give himself up.

That he also gives an explanation that never came back,

but that he really stays stuck.

He speaks for me in his advantage.

I wrote it down at the end.

That's one of the spurs, look.

It's a coincidence that the science isn't followed in this case.

But I'm convinced.

Because I suspect that we would have had a lot of sleepwalking cases in the next few years.

I think so.

Yes, because if you spoke for someone once,

then you can just wave at them.

So they're like, no one tried it after that,

in my or in my surrounding people, to say...

Yes, because they are there.

Yes, because they were murdered.

Yes, indeed.

Bizarre.

Yes, it's a shorter case, but I found it very fascinating.

Because there are a lot of elements in it.

And yes, I think so.

I keep shaking the whole time,

like, did you realize the goal or not?

But I'm going to say that he didn't realize the goal.

I'm going to defend myself for everything.

Yes, I'm just wondering, the only thing I'm wondering about...

I don't know if that's a different story,

but here it is, but it's worked on one piece.

He speaks, I dreamt of a break-in.

Yes, they still have...

I mean, they're convinced, wondering,

did you see someone here who didn't hear it?

And that wasn't the case.

But indeed, there's a flower pot outside.

How does he get into the room?

Is he in his sleep?

Because I was asleep,

because it's really getting worse.

Yes, I think so.

Or if he's going to pick up the flower pot first,

in what order did it all happen?

Yes, we don't know.

Then maybe it's just getting worse.

The fact that he really went to bed,

or next to the bed, or found it on the bed,

yes, do you get it?

Sleepwalking experts.

No, I just had a small question for him.

He had a break-in,

he said he didn't dream of Eva,

but he did dream of...

Where was Carl?

Flying, right?

He says that.

Miles, hi.

Miles, hi.

No, so, Valem,

I'm going to give something with that unconsciousness.

Yes, me too.

I believe in science.

I believe in REM sleep.

REM sleep is really nice.

I just wanted to do a little service.

The next episode won't continue,

because we have six live shows to work on in three weeks.

Bye.

So we can't take that in.

And the next two episodes that will follow

will be your stories.

We have a few stories to share, guys.

It's beautiful.

It's very good.

I'm very happy to read them and share them with you.

That's it.

Okay, we're going to drink a toast. Bye.

Bye.

Machine-generated transcript that may contain inaccuracies.